Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

[WondersPachi]

You need a switch up in the reward hopper, a few resistors and some toggle switches. That was just an approximate cost though.
I'd like to do more testing with these plastic gears though. They are very inexpensive, even to replace 2yrs down to road parsay in harsh
conditions. They shouldn't encounter very much backlash since the weight of the balls on the lifter will/should provide a constant load.

I didn't look into high impact plastic because the cost was cheap enough as it was but I would be more than happy to look into it!
That's why this site rocks!

For the prototype (current one it have built) I had to drill out the brass inserts to 5/8" to fit the copper pipe. This can be changed when/if the
auger is designed. I would prefer it to be smaller, not much but some as well as the bearings to lower cost as long as the new design components
are durable enough. I believe if it is designed the right way there should be minimal friction. With the right materials it can be done.

That said Steve, you know of anything that would do the job. What material has the lowest friction against pachinko balls? I am thinking
of having a something similar to a chrome plated drill rod for the main track guide. It will be what all the balls rest on when climbing up.

The motor I am currently using is a 50:1 12v gear motor that spins at just over 2 rounds per second. With the current minor gear reduction
I have now it its lowered to about 1.2 rounds per second. This allows time for each pachinko ball to enter the lift auger, since the blades of the
auger actually create somewhat of their own gate.

This could also be greatly improved by simply spacing the threads of the auger out at the bottom and the top and condensing them in the middle. so even at 2 rounds per second the entry and exit points of the lift are functioning like they are spinning at more like 1.2 rounds per second.

somewhat of an example:
Small example.jpg
IC-template Dwan.jpg

[Drunkenclam]

When I get my room back together, I'll be looking at feeding 3 machines on one wall and 2 machines plus a ball dispenser on the other wall. Probably looking at mass storage in the bottom plus smaller storage above. Connected to each machine by tubes to store the balls and release them in lots of 100 or 200 at a time. This will also stop the need for having to isolate or block the ball supply when opening the doors.

[Steve Cebu]

Ok so what you are saying is that a continuously running motor in a ball lifter will burn out or overheat, correct?

Now I know we used 110V motors in one of our products that had a fixed rpm and we chose that speed and those were designed to run for 12 hours straight moving 100 lbs. although that weight was mostly balanced.
The motors we used are used quite a lot for that product and most are still in use after 20 years!

This was an air cooled motor, if only I had access to the company files for the info on it. I bought a lot of them for the company but I can't recall all the details since I had all that info in front of me when I needed it.
At least I remember the name of the company we used. We stopped making those 6 years ago. They easily have enough power to feed any ball lifter.

[Steve Cebu]

High impact plastic is used on things like snowblower chutes and other hazardous jobs. The thing is my snowblower has thrown 2-3" think chunks of solid granite and not damaged the high impact plastic chute I have. It's also used for a lot of other applications of course.
It is amazingly tough, no idea on cost tho.

The lowest friction material that you could afford is teflon. Yes there are other materials that are slicker in terms of overall friction.
But teflon is a LOT cheaper than that other stuff. Teflon is like wet soap on ice when it comes to anything metal.
We used a lot of it, however teflon does wear over time so if you use it as a channel, eventually it will wear a groove in it over
say 5-10 years depending on thickness. Teflon coating would not be as good. Sadly teflon is pretty expensive, so you couldn't make
everything out of it but in a few key areas it could prevent ball jams.

I wonder if using a pair of rare earth magnets placed at just the right distance could prevent ball jams?
You know pulling on the balls just enough to line them up into one track or another.

An auger or worm gear is actually just a large screw. If I had access to a lathe I could probably make a prototype out of wood (cheaper)
Just set the speed for the right amount of turns you would need and use a bit designed for threading. It would obviously be a very
course thread. To manufacture something like this it would be ideal to just make it out of a high impact plastic and then make one
end a connector so you could add additional lengths for more height. So each length could be 2 feet or so and you could add on up to
say 8 feet of height in total. Using a proper motor it could spin all day and night and not wear out. If the H-I plastic was thick enough
it could easily do that and should last an easy 20 years.

My father wanted to know why I wasn't building a prototype right now.
Yeah it's not that easy or cheap. I also didn't retire with a lathe and a bridgeport in my garage either.

I think the gate for the auger will be an issue for feeding in properly as well as ball jams. It does seem that the W design works quite well.
Also if you look at the shooter trays they all have rounded plastic that has a smooth flow to it. The balls go from very wide to single file over a few inches.
Duplicate that, put some teflon on the problem areas and voila' no more ball jams!
and no more ball jams

[WondersPachi]

Alright great Steve! Teflon... never thought of that. Maybe H.I. Plastic or ABS Auger with teflon coating? What do you think?
I am still trying to find someone to actually manufacture the augers. I have looked at quite a few but I'm not sure yet.

What do you have a bunch of the motors somewhere?

Current motor specs.

Voltage = 12vdc
RPM = 120
Reduction = 50:1
Stall Torque = 123.20 oz-in (8.8 kg-cm)
Outside Diameter = 37mm
Weight = 5.50 oz.

ghm01.jpg

Pretty tough motor and with the small reduction setup the larger gear is fixed on the motor with the smaller gear on the drill/auger.

I have been working on a delivery device that could supply multiple machines but I am still deciding on the best way to do it.

[Steve Cebu]

I have thought about making a setup for these that I could sell. i worked in manufacturing for over 20 years.
So I'm fairly familiar with it although I haven't run a lathe or bridgeport for quite some time.

We actually manufactered many different products and one in particular used a stepdown motor.
The one in your pic is not rated for commercial use so over a relatively short period of time it will
burn out. The ones we used could handle and have handled 20 years of use.
All our original stuff is still in use today. Granted it was a sideline but we always had more orders
than we could fill. Good profit too, but we stopped making them.

Sadly the company has shutdown and left me jobless. But eventually something will come up.

We built a lot of machines over the years.

Teflon coating isn't going to last it will rub off and wear down like I said in my earlier post.
You need actual teflon and it will take a long time to wear down.

Anything I would build would be designed for heavy commercial use like in a Pachinko parlor.
I wouldn't know how to build something for light use, we built machines to make other
machines. Everything was designed to last forever or at least the stuff that wasn't a known wear item.
Some stuff will just wear out over time.

The motors I am talking about are pretty expensive, but it's been 6 years since we bought any.
We'd buy a lot at a time as well as the price break was somewhere around 30-50 motors.
I forget the exact number where it was the sweet spot.

We also had our own speeds as it was for our own application. These things were massively overbuilt.

I'm better at working on a team than all on my own as we had a lot of projects and quite a few
people working on each one. I was in A&P so finding it at the right price was my thing.
We had a lot of stuff made as well because somethings are easier to have someone else make
because they are specialists.

But this does sound like a fun project. I would actually want more resistance on a worm gear not less.
If you are too slippery the balls will tend to run downhill pretty easily.
Also it would be a royal pain to put teflon on a high impact plastic if it was possible. Cost would be
very high I'm sure. An auger can easily be used without teflon unless you are using a teflon bushing
instead of a bearing.

Maybe we should work together on this project make something with mass market appeal and make some
money?

[KimbaWLion]

Take a look at the SILK drive. That is about the best design I have ever seen
in terms of power, ball moving ability and QUIETNESS...

[Denhomer]

Take a look at the SILK drive. That is about the best design I have ever seen
in terms of power, ball moving ability and QUIETNESS...

Only in quietness...
When it has to lift balls 4-5 feet up in the air, the rubber can't support the weight of the balls and can't push them up anymore.

[flashlight]

I remember reading about the drive, only a few were made, and I only saw the video for the silk drive i didnt see any further specs on the drive.

4-5 feet seems like way more than enough for most pachinko setups. If the tube was angled it might take some of the load off the gear too. Like if the setup was more Z shaped, angled up, then return tube to top hopper was angled back towards the center.

[Drunkenclam]

The ball-dozer seems powerful and quiet. Once you get past what it looks like it seems pretty good. I was thinking of a conveyor belt for my lifter. No noisy gears. The biggest outlay would be a 3 metre belt.

[Steve Cebu]

There aren't many pics of the balldozer so I can't figure out how it works, but I'm guessing it uses a gear of some sort.
I agree about the silk drive that makes it impossible to put it on the floor and lift it into the hopper reliably which could
be as high as 6 feet.

I grabbed some pics from Reddit that were posted on PachiPachi there these are pics of how the parlors do their setups
from a company that sells systems to parlors.

I'm thinking a worm gear/auger will work great but a gear based system is what would be affordable enough to
produce.

pachinko parlor ball feed 01.jpgpachinko parlor ball feed 02.jpgpachinko parlor ball feed 03.jpgpachinko parlor ball feed 04.jpgpachinko parlor ball feed 05.jpg

[flashlight]

No wonder pachis are so loud, they have to cover up the noise of the factory level of equipment moving tens of thousands of balls all over the building!

It seems like the gear method is cheaper, quicker, and more reliable, but id like to get a clutch motor in case of jam. I personally am going to see if its possible to set up a unit in the gap of a standard slot pachinko frame ball return tray. If that fails or prooves too difficult id have to hope motor can lift from floor under wall mounted units.

Silly question but how do most people have their machines mounted, on tables or walls, and in cabinets or out?

I have a few ideas for a simple (hopefully cheaper) gear method. Ill try to use household/home depot parts rather than anything custom. (Im sure those are famous last words given how many different lifter projects were started then ended in a single unit never shared or produced)

But right now im still setting up my first machine, hoping to get a second one in the next week to repair/setup, and finishing my 4 player mame cabinet project. Which ill shamelessly plug : My first Cab: Ult arcade ii Built with lots of Mods

[Steve Cebu]

Yeah we are talking about moving a LOT of balls around and for 12 hours straight. I personally would love to see a pachinko parlor that is under contruction for putting in one of these systems.

A clutch motor is an idea, hard to say what is best because as you have pointed out so many projects have been started but nothing has come of those.

The parlors do in fact use worm gears but those systems are very expensive. They probably have other systems as well. The thing is a worm gear is much quieter than the gear method.

I think people have so many setups that it's impossible to say which is most common. So a ball lifter would need to be quite versatile.

The ones we can buy are gear based and most likely patented. A gear based system would be pretty cheap compared to a worm gear. Yes, you will lose roughly 28 balls per foot but
I think the cost difference is worth it. I looked up augers and they are expensive compared to gears. A vertical conveyer belt would work which is sort of what the silk drive is based on.
But I think the initial design would be quite complicated.

I went to our link but you have to be a member I guess.

[daverob]

If the tube was angled it might take some of the load off the gear too. Like if the setup was more Z shaped, angled up, then return tube to top hopper was angled back towards the center.

Remember that if you angle the tube, you will also lengthen it. So there will be more balls in the tube being lifted at any given moment, and the load on the motor/gear won't be significantly reduced from what you would have had if you had used a straight tube.

Given the choice between an auger or a gear based lift, I'd go for the gear every time. It's a lot less complicated, as you don't need to make/source a 4ft long auger and suitable rails/tube for the balls to run up against, and then have to support the auger at both ends with associated bearings and a rigid support structure.

With a gear based lift, you find a suitable pitch chain sprocket. Fix it directly to the output shaft of your motor/gearbox, and you only have to worry about designing the housing around the gear that directs the balls into the lift tube (which is just standard plumbing pipe).

As far as ball lifter projects go, I think the Balldozer has got it pretty much spot on. I've got two of them and they do everything I want from a ball lifter. I even prefer them to the orange Japanese ball lifter that I imported a few years earlier.

BTW. The parlour systems are usually belt driven. The belt runs the entire height of the lift and is about 6" wide with about a dozen channels in it that roll the balls up against stationary channels. I was planning to attempt a cut down version of this with a long automotive accessory belt, just to see how effective it might be, but gave up on the idea once I got my Balldozers. If I ever find the time I might still give it a go, just to satisfy my engineering curiosity, but I've got plenty of other projects that are more interesting to do first.

[Steve Cebu]

As far as ball lifter projects go, I think the Balldozer has got it pretty much spot on. I've got two of them and they do everything I want from a ball lifter. I even prefer them to the orange Japanese ball lifter that I imported a few years earlier.

Hi Dave, whatever happened to the Balldozer? Did he just stop making them, or were they too expensive? I might be interested in buying one if he still has them depending on price. I have no idea what they cost.

I do agree that a gear based system is easier and cheaper to build. However the new systems in Japan that I posted pics of one of those systems does in fact use an auger/worm gear.
The very first pic uses a worm gear to move the balls to the other side of the aisle. Supposedly the ball control is all computerized as well at least according to the translation I read.

If you want to hear a really crazy idea, my father suggested that a system should be pnuematic and not gear, auger or belt driven. I think my dads age is showing because no way could you make something like that work in the home, compressors are loud. I guess he figures almost no moving parts to break. He'll be visiting in June so maybe he and I can brainstorm it then.

[new in town]

Due to the cost involved the gentleman decided not to mass produce them. Here is the link to his Web Page. :

http://www.balldozer.de/The_Balldozer/Home.html

[Steve Cebu]

Thanks, I think this is why a lot of ball lifters made by Pachi fans don't make it. It's not the design, many work quite well, it's the fact that you'd have to make money selling them.
To do that you have to know a bit about manufacturing to get it profitable.
This guy basically made no money doing it. So no more being made.

[Denhomer]

I read a lot about ball lifters having to be quiet in parlours...
If you ever go to a parlour, you will know that it is not quiet at all. The moment the door opens, you are blown away by the a wall of noise.
This is the reason we install extra volume controls, because the parlour sound is way too loud for home use. On top of that the stereo system they run is even making more noise than the machines themselves.
So if you want a good, quiet home use ball lifter, I suggest that you don' look too much at parlour systems.

[KimbaWLion]

If you you get one made for SAY a bit over $100 which is about what an orange one cost BEFORE any shipping. profit etc. etc. making it ALMOST $300.00...
That is the price of 2/3 of some pachis. I would rather be bothered by scooping at that point which I do.

[flashlight]

my link didnt work? http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/inde...topic=116661.0 or you needed to log in to view pictures?