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Thread: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

  1. #1
    Tokie Owens RustedGold's Avatar
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    Default Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    I have been poking around the threads since I first discovered it a few hours ago, and I'm not a 100% sure if this is where I should post this topic or not, but I have been trying to find out more information about the game Smart Ball.


    and the reason why is a game called Shenmue III.

    Shenmue III takes place in rural China in the mountains along the Lijiang river in the year 1987 and across your martial arts journey you find a few places where you can play Smart Ball, they are completely optional and have no bearing to the games plot but you can play Smart Ball and win prizes.




    I already found another thread where someone posted a picture of a model called Corinth ball, and I did some more digging and found another picture from an Auction site of this particular game, its very similar to the one showed in the video above with an almost Identical pattern, however in Shenmue III there are dozens of other Smart Ball tables not shown in the video above with dozens of patterns and different rule sets where you try to get every ball into a hole, or just land the balls into certain holes. I have not played every Smart Ball Table In Shenmue, but to my knowledge they do not play like modern Smart ball and do not reward additional balls, which led me down a rabbit hole where I ended up here looking to see if they were based on older machines and I think they were.



    but I'm posting because I still have a ton of questions about this game, and maybe someone here can help me find the answers I'm looking for or help point me in the right direction to figure this stuff out. I found out a few things before finding this site like that they still have a few places to play Smart Ball in Japan, but they work completely different from what is shown in the game Shenmue.


    Questions
    1# would it have been realistic to find these kinds of game in rural China in 1987?
    2# what is the history behind Smart Ball, does it go by other names like Corinthball or others?
    3# what are the major differences between modern Smart ball and older units like the Corinthball table when did they start giving you more balls, why did they start using blue glass instead of metal ball bearings?
    4# what is considered to be the rarest of these kinds of games?
    5# has anyone achieved a list of these games?



    I know I'm asking a lot but Mechanical arcade games are really interesting a few years back I picked up an old Pachinko machine, and finding this site just might give me the motivation to fix it up, and I also got lucky about a year ago and found another old Mechanical shooting gallery game called Midway Trophy Gun 1964, so I already have a eye for these things and playing Shenmue Recently I thought hey that might be based on something which led me here thanks in advance for any information

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  3. #2
    Pachi Puro emmadog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    hardly any smart ball machines are here in the US so in general, not alot of specifics are available.
    many very cool mechanical pay out machines were made here in the US way back in the day.
    EM Pinballs & Arrangeballs

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    Pachi Puro lotsoballs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    I don’t know the answers to most of your questions; but I do know they still make and sell vintage style smart balls for at home use (mainly for kids at festivals to play for prizes/candy) in yahoo Japan auctions.

    The Corinth game is the predecessor to pachinko, smart ball and pinball. Best way to learn about their gameplay is start watching YouTube videos of old ones still in parlors. They were never mass imported and would be pricey to do so because of their size; so probably makes more sense financially to most to just get a modern American pinball at that price point unless you are very passionate and have very deep pockets!

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    Eye Shooter cait001's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    Hi, I can answer most of your questions. I've been obsessed with Smart Ball for a few years.

    bagatelle games arrived via European import in Japan at the start of the 20th century, as Fortuna and Corinthian. Later models would also come from America as it picked up the bagatelle games, which were home kid games. (American pinball only really took off in 1931 with the coinop models)
    here's an example of an early Japanese bagatelle I have:
    poolette.jpg

    The model shown in your post is the one I own ("Corinthball") and was thought to be at Japanese spring fairs in the 1930s but was very popular post WW2, as the nation was starting to find itself again and it provided low-stakes games and small prizes like soap or cigarettes.
    20200501_162606.jpg
    This familiar style is from post WW2. The pre WW2 have a different layout and pin style that is more reflective of the early 1930s bagatelles.

    There is documentation of these machines at festivals, but also dedicated parlors where I'd presume it was organized gambling.
    These machines were also commonly found in "spa towns", and some can even still be found there today in retro ("Showa era") places. Though they are very few and far between.
    You would NOT see these kinds of machines in China AFAIK. The cultural conditions in the 1980s, and Japan <-> China relationship of the time, would probably see minimal cultural crossover. But who knows! Maybe some did make it to Chinese spa towns, modelling a bit after the Japanese traditions?

    The Corinth game is NOT actually the predecessor to pachinko. Pachinko evolved directly from the influence of European allwin-style machines.
    Smart Ball machines evolved simultaneously alongside pachinko, but there's a direct evolution from allwins (which arrived late 19th century) into the earliest pachinko machines.
    This has all been well documented by historian and curator Mr. Sugiyama and you can see the history laid out here:
    http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...-pachinko.html
    (his books are in Japanese, but all 3 are linked from that post)

    I also have a further post with supplemental documentation (Japanese) here:
    http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...-material.html

    The later-style Smart Ball machines that have automated payouts utilized the ingenuity of mechanical pachinko payout technology (developed 1951) and that resulted in Smart Ball machines that have that familiar "mini pinball" shape like you see in your video game.
    those automatic Smart Ball machines (I think, have never been able to confirm) arrived probably mid-late 1960s and were popular into the 1970s.
    As Japan became more prosperous, the low-stakes and slow play of Smart Ball fell way out of favour to the 70s pachinko machines, and the advent of solid state pachinko with fevers and electric shooters was the end of typical smart ball development.

    OK, so that should answer questions 1 and 2...

    question 3 is partly answered above. The older tables (sometimes also called Lucky Ball) were popular in the 30s to 50s, and probably into the 60s+ at fairs and festivals.
    They would be laid out in booths and you'd pay money and the attendant would release the balls from a latch behind.
    The automated payout Smart Balls I guess came late 60s, adopting the 1951 automated pachinko payout mechanism for the smart ball format.
    Blue marbles were traditional but not essential, probably just available.
    Smart Ball machines never use steel pinballs / steel bearings. It's always marbles.
    you can see my later-style Smart Ball here:
    20190104_183338.jpg


    Another one, at the pachinko museum:
    IMG_8115.JPG

    The one in your videogame is a mashup of the later machines (in that they have a backglass and are automatic) but with the traditional style layout, minus the bottom three holes.

    4) the rarest would be the first ones.
    Here is the oldest known Smart Ball, circa 1935-1936:
    IMG_8179.JPG

    5) There is no better historian on the origins of pachinko and smart ball than Mr. Sugiyama and you'll enjoy the post on his museum. http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...-pachinko.html
    But even Mr. Sugiyama does not know all of the details, like when the automatic Smart Balls were first developed. He and I are still trying to research that.

    if you have any more questions I'll be happy to look at them.
    And if you need any help with the Midway Trophy Gun let me know and I can assist in resources on that.
    Last edited by cait001; 11-26-2020 at 01:33 PM. Reason: pics
    WANTED: 10¥ games, pre-1950s machines, スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Pickwick-style (~1905)
    if you have any of these in North America, let's talk.

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    Eye Shooter cait001's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    also you can play a digital version. Someone else wrote it but I put the code up on my website. http://thetastates.com/befive-smartball-master/

    more info: http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...tal-games.html
    WANTED: 10¥ games, pre-1950s machines, スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Pickwick-style (~1905)
    if you have any of these in North America, let's talk.

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    Chicken Fried Steak takethecastle57's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    Quote Originally Posted by RustedGold View Post
    I have been poking around the threads since I first discovered it a few hours ago, and I'm not a 100% sure if this is where I should post this topic or not, but I have been trying to find out more information about the game Smart Ball.


    and the reason why is a game called Shenmue III.

    Shenmue III takes place in rural China in the mountains along the Lijiang river in the year 1987 and across your martial arts journey you find a few places where you can play Smart Ball, they are completely optional and have no bearing to the games plot but you can play Smart Ball and win prizes.




    I already found another thread where someone posted a picture of a model called Corinth ball, and I did some more digging and found another picture from an Auction site of this particular game, its very similar to the one showed in the video above with an almost Identical pattern, however in Shenmue III there are dozens of other Smart Ball tables not shown in the video above with dozens of patterns and different rule sets where you try to get every ball into a hole, or just land the balls into certain holes. I have not played every Smart Ball Table In Shenmue, but to my knowledge they do not play like modern Smart ball and do not reward additional balls, which led me down a rabbit hole where I ended up here looking to see if they were based on older machines and I think they were.



    but I'm posting because I still have a ton of questions about this game, and maybe someone here can help me find the answers I'm looking for or help point me in the right direction to figure this stuff out. I found out a few things before finding this site like that they still have a few places to play Smart Ball in Japan, but they work completely different from what is shown in the game Shenmue.


    Questions
    1# would it have been realistic to find these kinds of game in rural China in 1987?
    2# what is the history behind Smart Ball, does it go by other names like Corinthball or others?
    3# what are the major differences between modern Smart ball and older units like the Corinthball table when did they start giving you more balls, why did they start using blue glass instead of metal ball bearings?
    4# what is considered to be the rarest of these kinds of games?
    5# has anyone achieved a list of these games?



    I know I'm asking a lot but Mechanical arcade games are really interesting a few years back I picked up an old Pachinko machine, and finding this site just might give me the motivation to fix it up, and I also got lucky about a year ago and found another old Mechanical shooting gallery game called Midway Trophy Gun 1964, so I already have a eye for these things and playing Shenmue Recently I thought hey that might be based on something which led me here thanks in advance for any information


    The best of luck to get one of these machines and have enough money for purchase,packing,shipping,tolls, and such


    Here is a vintage American pinball with the same concept


    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/clt...234448812.html
    When things don't go right the 1st time , Step back ,Take a break and come back renewed. RGS

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    Eye Shooter cait001's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    Quote Originally Posted by takethecastle57 View Post


    The best of luck to get one of these machines and have enough money for purchase,packing,shipping,tolls, and such


    Here is a vintage American pinball with the same concept


    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/clt...234448812.html

    What you have there is a Bingo Pinball which is a whooooole other beast.
    Absolute marvels of electro-mechanical technology.
    Check more of them in my post here: http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...2s-bingos.html

    Working on a smart ball vs working on a bingo pinball is the difference between working on a toy slinky vs rebuilding the engine on a truck.


    you can also see the predecessor of the bingo, from the 1940s, here: One ball horse racing machines http://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/20...all-horse.html
    WANTED: 10¥ games, pre-1950s machines, スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Pickwick-style (~1905)
    if you have any of these in North America, let's talk.

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    Tokie Owens RustedGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    Thank you Cait001, that gives a lot of stuff to go through and start researching I sent you a message about Trophy Gun as well as some questions about other types of games I'm trying to track down the history of.

    and thanks Takethecastle57 I'm slowly diving into this hobby but maybe one day I will own some SmartBall tables as well as some Pinball tables.

    Here is another video featuring more Smart Ball tables from Shenmue.



    The Mechanics of these game are what I find interesting because the tables have a mechanism for releasing the balls between games after landing them in the holes and a drop bar to release the balls each new game, also something Cait001 said they would give out prizes like Soap or cigarettes, and you can win small toys and other items in Shenmue III by playing them so it looks like Shenmue as a video game did it's homework when adding Smart Ball parlors to the game.

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    Eye Shooter cait001's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking for information on Smart Ball/Shenmue

    I put this up on my blog for easy reference: https://pinballnovice.blogspot.com/2...shenmue-3.html
    WANTED: 10¥ games, pre-1950s machines, スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Pickwick-style (~1905)
    if you have any of these in North America, let's talk.

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