Circulating vs. non-circulating machines

[lotsoballs]

This thread clarifies a lot of my questions/misconceptions of cyclic machines....excellent points made by both sides of the "debate"! This should be a sticky!

[mandoman]

I connect LED counters to the Winning Balls terminal on both my cyclic and parlor machines as a simple way to track wins.
http://amzn.com/B00CB9ZXBO

[MrGneiss]

Seems as if all the responses are coming from Members who have never even had a Cycle machine. I do find some of the responses humorous and a little misleading.

Just because the machine cycle's, (meaning the lost balls are returning to the upper or lower trays on the front of the machine), and not to the rear of the machine. This has absolutely nothing to do with Payouts.

You can keep your hopper full, as you always have, and the machine plays and pays out exactly the same as it always has. Just because it cycles, doesn't mean you can't get payouts or win Jackpots. It just means you have the option of not filling the hopper and getting no pay outs and being able to play the machine with a handful of balls.

I think most members have a great misunderstanding of what a cycle machine really is and the different options you have to play it.

I don't know about newer members knowing this, but having payouts with cyclic machines was always discussed here 9, 10, 11 years ago.. All the cyclic machines brought over from Japan back then at best just had the payout mechs unplugged and at worst removed, so sometimes payouts could be restored.. The reason we usually just talk about cyclic machines not just being able to run on a few balls but Also including no payouts is because that is how they were made to be for Japanese customers so they didn't need to bother with all them balls, so cyclic just turned into a sort of short hand here for referring to machines that cycle balls And don't pay out..But it doesn't mean us old fogies don't know whats what!!

[daverob]

I can keep track by using a Gaku counter. Number of balls shot, number of balls won and it subtracts or adds the difference to give me an exact number of weather I'm winning or losing. It doesn't count any lost balls, only the balls that the machine paid out. Just because my shooter tray is full of paid out and lost balls, it makes no difference.

I like the Gaku counter and agree that it helps keep track of things with Cyclic machines, but again it's another 'non-standard' modification. I'm pretty much obsessed by originality (I won't put LED bulbs in my pinball machines, and detest the machines of collectors that look like someone's dumped a box full of happy-meal toys on the playfield). I want my pachinko machines with ball loan systems, original Japanese Data Counters, and a pile of ball trays behind me that tell me how big a winning streak I'm on.

I know my home set-up isn't perfect. I have to make compromises, as some of the originality aspects are either not possible or not practical. My ball loan system is a card reader emulator, as you can't get a real pre-paid card system working outside a Japanese pachinko hall. I don't have a genuine ball counter to 'cash in' at the end of a play session, I have to rely on a set of counting scales, where the tare function will show me how many balls I have in each tray, but it's close enough that it satisfies my compulsion for originality.

Playing a machine the original way is the same thing. Here's why, you use your card emulator to call for balls. You just filled your shooter tray with lost balls. Lost balls are what keeps the hopper and pay out system full. You continue to play, winning pay outs, now your shooter tray has lost and paid out balls both in it. You play till the shooter tray goes empty. You then call for more balls and the shooter tray is filled with lost balls again. This happens over and over till win a Fever Round.

To me, they're not lost balls and paid out balls, they're 'purchased' balls paid out from the emulator, and 'won' balls. Lost balls are owned by the pachinko parlour, they only become mine once they're purchased or won from the machine. It's 5am over here and my insomniac brain can't cope with the mathematics required to determine whether they're numerically equivalent, or whether the act of re-shooting a lost or prize ball will skew the statistics one way or another , but the originality side of my brain is still shouting "this is how it's counted in the Japanese halls, so this is how you must count it" to me.

Maybe once I get a good night's sleep and my brain becomes less foggy, I'll work through it and decide whether we're just arguing over semantics. But either way, we're adults filling rooms with expensive and unusual toys, so I think we deserve our own little eccentricities.

[luckydog]

the only main thing is, no matter how we do it, we're all having fun

[Wayne-Ooo]

To me, they're not lost balls and paid out balls, they're 'purchased' balls paid out from the emulator, and 'won' balls. Lost balls are owned by the pachinko parlour, they only become mine once they're purchased or won from the machine. It's 5am over here and my insomniac brain can't cope with the mathematics required to determine whether they're numerically equivalent, or whether the act of re-shooting a lost or prize ball will skew the statistics one way or another , but the originality side of my brain is still shouting "this is how it's counted in the Japanese halls, so this is how you must count it" to me.

I agree, in a Parlor they are purchased balls. Your winnings are determined by how much money you spent for the purchased balls and how much you "cash-in" your trays of balls for, that the machine paid out. So, at the end of the night you could of paid more for the balls than what you cashed in for. Just because you have several trays of "won balls" doesn't mean you really won. It comes down to, how much did you pay to win those balls?

At home, you don't pay for balls or cash them in. The payout system is refilled with lost balls, weather you cyclic them directly to the shooter tray or are using a ball lifter to refill the hopper. They all end up back in the shooter tray. That's why playing at home, I call them "lost balls".

Playing at home, If you want to know if you really won, you need to keep count of the balls. But still, most of the time I don't. I just like playing the machine and don't really care if I won or lost to get to a Fever Round.

If I get a Fever Round, then I feel as if I've won, no matter how many balls it took me to get it.

[lotsoballs]

I agree, in a Parlor they are purchased balls. Your winnings are determined by how much money you spent for the purchased balls and how much you "cash-in" your trays of balls for, that the machine paid out. So, at the end of the night you could of paid more for the balls than what you cashed in for. Just because you have several trays of "won balls" doesn't mean you really won. It comes down to, how much did you pay to win those balls?

At home, you don't pay for balls or cash them in. The payout system is refilled with lost balls, weather you cyclic them directly to the shooter tray or are using a ball lifter to refill the hopper. They all end up back in the shooter tray. That's why playing at home, I call them "lost balls".

Playing at home, If you want to know if you really won, you need to keep count of the balls. But still, most of the time I don't. I just like playing the machine and don't really care if I won or lost to get to a Fever Round.

If I get a Fever Round, then I feel as if I've won, no matter how many balls it took me to get it.

^Kinda how I feel. I've only been to a pachinko parlor once, and was promptly relieved of $80 worth of balls. I might be singing a different tune however if got a bunch of fevers and got to play for hours, but it wasn't in the cards that day! At home pachinko is the better value for the money IMO if you are more into playing pachinko itself as opposed to the gambling aspects; although I'm very glad the only pachinko parlor in the US currently is right here in NC just for the experience!

[Wayne-Ooo]

I don't know about you, Daverob, but I'm ready for closing statements on this debate/discussion/difference of opinion, or whatever you wish to call it.

I always felt that there was a misunderstanding on Cyclic machines and what exactly it all meant and how you could use a Cyclic machine. Now, Members new and old, should have a better understanding of what a Cyclic machine is and can do.

Being that a Pachinko machine was designed for gambling in a Parlor setting and not for the purpose of playing for entertainment only, in a Home setting. Setting one up in the home and playing it requires some type of a way to conveniently manage the balls. Because for a modern machine, you are dealing with lots of balls.
For most of us, if you want to play it as it was designed and all the lost balls are coming out of the back of the machine, you need to find a way to conveniently get them to the front. Or it's not much fun, dealing with balls from the back of the machine, all the time.

I do agree with you that the best way would be to keep your machines original and recreate the Parlor setting. This does require time, the space and a bit of money, for several machines. If you want to do it right and build/design a cabinet/cabinets with a ball management system for all the lost balls from machines to go to and be picked up by at least one ball lifter and fill a ball reservoir to replenish the machines hoppers. Having Card Emulators and Battle Counters for each machine also.

Being they were not designed to be played in your home or meant for entertainment only, but for a Parlor and to gamble with. Recreating the "Parlor Feel/Setting" isn't an option for most of us. So, we try to find the best way, for us, to play the machines with some type of convenience to manage the balls.

Cyclicing a machine, modifying the existing payout channels and directing balls to one of the trays, the machine already has, is one option. I find it to be the easiest and simplest way to achieve ball management and to play the machine for entertainment only.
I have no real "gambling feel", not having to call for balls, or getting down to my last few balls in the shooter tray, because they are always available. I do get that "winning feel" when I get a Fever Round, because that's the only reason I was playing, to start with.

Modifying a machine isn't for everyone, especially someone who want's to keep there machine original. But, now I think it has been made aware that modifying a machine isn't always a "hack job" and can be return to function as original, when the time is taken to do a quality modification.

I feel that if a Pachinko machine was originally designed for Home Use and to be played for entertainment only and not used for the purpose of gambling, it would have been designed similar to a Cyclic machine. Sort of like a pinball machine, with a "free play" option and a scoring system.
But, being they weren't, so we are back to where we started.

I think we have provided some great information by sharing our opinions, that now, any Member could make a more informed decision on how to play or setup their machine and decide for them self, what works best for them.

[Wayne-Ooo]

I've only been to a pachinko parlor once, and was promptly relieved of $80 worth of balls.

Sounds like most of my visits to the Casino. empty-pockets.gif

[luckydog]

I'm ahead a little at the Tampa hard rock casino, about even at the dog track and since 1999 won a total of around $25,000.00 on the Florida lottery cash 3 and play 4

[lotsoballs]

I'm ahead a little at the Tampa hard rock casino, about even at the dog track and since 1999 won a total of around $25,000.00 on the Florida lottery cash 3 and play 4

No wonder you go by "luckydog"...