Circulating vs. non-circulating machines

[Wayne-Ooo]

well Arby removed the back ball tray and payout out system on my Bunny Girl,

so it is either full cyclic with a dozen balls or auto play

Yeah, with no hopper or payout system you have only one choice.

I do have a couple of machines that the payout system failed and to still be able to use the machine, I had no other choice than to make it Cycle. But, I did take it a step further and installed Gaku counters on them. So, now I play for points, rather than balls.

I took the cell completely apart and routered a groove for the lost balls to return to the front tray of the machine, so they wouldn't be counted. The balls that enter the win, start and jackpot pockets go into the machines existing channels, which are also cycled back the the front tray, are are counted as 5 points each.

This way you do have some sort of scoring system. It's just points, instead of balls.

I always install a Auto-Play button. It's just another option, especially for those long runs of "no action", gives your shooting hand a little break.

[Drunkenclam]

I always wanted to design a time played system. Linked to the shooter and stop button. So for every pocket gives you an extra 10 seconds of play. The stop button would stop the shooter and clock, useful during long reaches.
But for now it's all in my head.

[Spyder138]

Just because the machine cycle's, (meaning the lost balls are returning to the upper or lower trays on the front of the machine), and not to the rear of the machine. This has absolutely nothing to do with Payouts.

I was under the impression that full cyclic machines did not pay out any balls to the front of the machine and that the system was largely self-contained for lack of a better word, and that semi-cyclic machines paid lost balls to the front of the machine and could also utilize the hopper. Perhaps I don't understand properly the difference between cyclic and semi-cyclic and that could also contribute to why I have never purchased a machine advertised as cyclic.

[Wayne-Ooo]

Most people have the same understanding as you. But, it's not the case, you can Full Cyclic a machine and still play it as you always have. The advantage, for me, is that I never have to reload the shooter tray or stop playing.

With a Full Cyclic machine the balls that enter the lost ball pocket, (at the bottom of the cell), and the balls that enter the winning pockets, all return to the upper shooter tray. The machine can be played as "self contained", using only a handful of balls. Because all the balls you are shooting return to the upper shooter tray.

But if you keep the hopper and payout system on the machine, the machine will still payout, as normal. Once the upper tray fills with balls they are routed to the lower tray, as normal. Once the bottom tray fills, you empty it, as normal, using the blast gate lever built into the tray and refill the hopper. (Just like in a Fever Round, but much slower).

With a Semi-Cyclic machine the lost balls and the balls that enter the winning pockets are routed to the bottom tray. (Generally it's easier to semi-cyclic a machine.)
It plays about the same, just that if you run low on balls in the shooter tray, you grab some from the bottom tray to refill the shooter tray.

[Wayne-Ooo]

Don't let a machine advertised as "Cyclic" discourage you. As long as it still has a working payout system. You can play it as you always have. It can only be called a "Full Cyclic" machine, if you choose to play it without using the pay out system.

If you play it as any other machine you normally play, I'd call it a machine with a "Built-In Loan System", rather than Full Cyclic.

Same goes for a Semi-Cyclic machine. As long as the payout system is working you can play it as any other machine you play. It just has a "Semi-Built-In Loan System". Because you have to get extra balls from the lower tray to refill the shooter tray.

[mandoman]

The cyclic machines are near ready-to-play. You just have to learn how to turn it on and reset it. For this reason they make great gifts. I own both and enjoy them about the same.

[Spyder138]

Most people have the same understanding as you.

Thanks for the education. I think maybe I'll give cyclic a try with my next machine if I have the option.

[MrGneiss]

Still not much interest to me because having limited balls to play with is part of the whole experience for me..Just like with a video game where you enter a code and get unlimited lives..On some games that can be fine, but on some games it can ruin all the fun..A Pacman that never dies wouldn't be that much fun for me!!

If balls are always coming back in the tray too shoot it takes away the thrill and fun of getting low on balls and hoping for just one more win....Its exciting for me even if I can just grab more balls any time I want!!

Same reason I never got an auto credit add for my pachislo!!

[Wayne-Ooo]

Sounds like you are describing my savings account.

[daverob]

Cyclic doesn't work for me with the way I like to play pachinko. I play as a gambler in Japan does, I have my initial 'wager' as a set number of balls (either physically in a tray, or as credit on a dongle), and I play until I win big and cash out or I run out of balls/credit. That's the thrill for me, some days you walk away broke, other days you have trays full of balls stacked up behind you.

In my opinion, if you're getting your losing balls back to play again, then you might as well open the glass and just drop them straight into the start pocket as you're not 'playing' the machine you're just watching it.

I also don't see the point of what is usually referred to as 'semi-cyclic'. If you just want your lost balls back at the front of the machine (and not necessarily in the upper shooter tray), then build a ball return into your cabinet or stick your machine on 2x4" feet with a paint roller tray. Don't go hacking up the insides of a perfectly good machine, that's just vandalism!

Of course there are other schools of thought.

[luckydog]

YEP!! the paint tray mod really does the job

[stampeed valkyrie]

daverob makes a good point... I don't play the gambler method but I also don't like making any modification to the machine that cannot be reversed.

and in the strictest of sense, all my machines are semi cyclic, as lost balls drop and roll forward allowing me to reuse them. This is thanks to the Keith cabinet.. I still need to keep an eye on the upper tank if I start winning, but its not hard to just transfer from one to the other with this setup.

[Wayne-Ooo]

Your correct on "The other school of thoughts". It could be debated all day long.

At first, I took your comment "Don't go hacking up the insides of a perfectly good machine, that's just vandalism!", as an insult. But, I'm hoping you didn't mean it that way.

I don't feel that I committed any type of vandalism or hacked up MY MACHINE. I only modified it to the way I like to play it.

[daverob]

I don't feel that I committed any type of vandalism or hacked up MY MACHINE. I only modified it to the way I like to play it.

I appreciate I came over a bit strong on that point, but this thread is asking for opinions and that's how I feel about my machines. I feel so strongly about playing machines in as close to the Japanese pachinko hall environment as it's possible to recreate in the home, that I spent 8 months of my spare time reverse engineering the machines and designing a dongle to emulate the pre-paid card units.

If you feel different, then your opinion is worth as much as mine, and they're your machines to do with as you see fit. But taking my opinion as an insult, when you own comments earlier in this thread claim that our opinions are "humorous and a little misleading" and we have a "great misunderstanding" of cyclic machines does appear a little patronizing and hypocritical.

You also claimed that "you can Full Cyclic a machine and still play it as you always have", and I gave an example of why I feel that is untrue. If the losing balls are returned to me and mixed in with my prize balls, then I have no way of keeping track of my winnings and losses and the gambling aspect of pachinko is completely lost.

My comment about hacking up a pachinko machine, only really applies to semi-cyclic mods. If the lost balls are routed to the lower tray and you've got to grab them to put them into the upper tray, then you don't gain anything that you wouldn't get from any other method of routing the balls to the front. So why not spend the effort on making a nice cabinet with a ball return rather than making a somewhat pointless mod to the machine. If you want full-cyclic, then you've got no choice but to modify the machine.

I suppose the original posters question could be rephrased as 'Does a cyclic mod to a machine affect it's value to a collector?'. To me it definitely does, I wouldn't buy a cyclic machine if other options exist. If it was the only example of a particular machine then I might consider it if I thought I could reverse the mod, but the machine's value would be lowered by the value of my time taken to reverse the cyclic mod and the fact that it's now non-original. I imagine to you it's going to increase it's value, as you don't have to modify it yourself.

There will always be conflicting opinions on this subject, and as they're only opinions then both sides must be correct.

[luckydog]

all that really matters is if your happy with whatever you do or don't do to your machines

[alucard7x7]

I'm really grateful to everyone who has commented. Never thought I'd generate such interest but I have learned a lot. After Daverob's comment, i'm curious to try out the "gamblers" method with a car emu. But I still would like to test out a cyclic. Thank you!

[Wayne-Ooo]

Yeah, we both have some pretty strong opinions. Reading the "typed words" vs hearing the "spoken words" can sometimes be taken as, not the way they were meant.

Seemed to me that the general consensus was that a Cyclic machine could not give you payouts. Which I found a little humorous, because Members who have been familiar with Pachinko machines, longer than I have, didn't seem to be aware of this.

The consensus was that a Cyclic machine equaled no payouts, no jackpots and you only need to play with a handful of balls, which is misleading, because it's not true. This Site has been around for several years and after all this time Members didn't know this. I consider this a great misunderstanding of what a cyclic machine is.

With any modification in can be a "hack job" or a well done quality job. Some may also think that once you modify a machine to Cyclic, that you can't return it back to preform as an Original machine. If it was a hack job modification then maybe not, who knows? With a quality modification, most certainly!

You should be very proud of your dongle and complimented on your work . If a Member is looking to set up their machines as a "Parlor Feel", then your dongle would be a "must have". Another must have, would be a ball lifter to return the lost balls to the hopper. Then you could play as if you were in a Parlor and limit yourself to balls and keep track of what you put in and also what you got in return, if you wish, and I guess get some type of a "gambling feel".

To me, gambling is playing for money or a prize. The balls are just the platform in a way to accomplish this. Unless you are paying for the balls, you aren't losing any money and if you are winning balls you aren't making any money. It's just pretend gambling, to me, no real feel of actually winning or of losing. Your just tracking/counting balls.

I'm on the other side of the fence. I like machines that Cyclic. I don't try to get any type of a Parlor or gambling feel. I just get entertainment playing the machine. Always having balls in the shooter tray to play with, watching the LCD screen with all types of different Reaches and what the machine goes through till eventually winning a Fever Round. I do like to play the machines with the hopper full and get payouts and win balls during Fever Rounds. It's not for any type of a gambling feel, it's just the platform that the machine works on. I shoot "free" balls into the playfield and end up getting lots of "free" balls back, pretty simple, I know, but for me, it's just entertainment.

Which, playing at home, I think there are several Members who do play just for the entertainment that the machine provides.

A wise man once said, and I agree, "There will always be conflicting opinions on this subject, and as they're only opinions then both sides must be correct."

smilie_pachitime.gif

[hanabi]

This thread is a great example of how passionate we can all be about our beloved Pachinko machines, how we feel about them, and what they mean to us as individual players.

Opinions are just that, our own personal take on the matter and discussions can be really useful to members with questions, it goes to show that there is more than 1 school of thought and no 'right' or 'wrong' just differing situations and / or viewpoints, just like with the 'Vintage' versus 'modern' debate

I wonder if the pachinko industry in Japan realise that there is a corner (or two) in the West where we have truly taken their machines to our hearts and brought them into our homes? I wonder what they would make of us?

[Wayne-Ooo]

You also claimed that "you can Full Cyclic a machine and still play it as you always have", and I gave an example of why I feel that is untrue. If the losing balls are returned to me and mixed in with my prize balls, then I have no way of keeping track of my winnings and losses and the gambling aspect of pachinko is completely lost.

Missed this in my earlier post,

I can keep track by using a Gaku counter. Number of balls shot, number of balls won and it subtracts or adds the difference to give me an exact number of weather I'm winning or losing. It doesn't count any lost balls, only the balls that the machine paid out. Just because my shooter tray is full of paid out and lost balls, it makes no difference.

Playing a machine the original way is the same thing. Here's why, you use your card emulator to call for balls. You just filled your shooter tray with lost balls. Lost balls are what keeps the hopper and pay out system full. You continue to play, winning pay outs, now your shooter tray has lost and paid out balls both in it. You play till the shooter tray goes empty. You then call for more balls and the shooter tray is filled with lost balls again. This happens over and over till win a Fever Round.

To get a true count you need to subtract all the balls you "called for" from those trays of winning balls setting on the floor, that you just won. Or, by adding a counter to your machine to get a accurate count.

Either way the shooter trays have lost and paid out balls in them. Only difference is the rate they are kept full.

[naha13]

Most of my machines are still setup to circulate. I have a ball lifter, so it's not a big deal. I got a cyclic machine from another member(Double Wing) a few years ago and it's just as much fun as the others. I just don't have to do any ball management, so it's easier to setup and run anywhere I want. It only takes about 20 balls to run it, so it's a lot of fun without any setup hassle where you don't have a permanent spot for a pachi. So.....don't knock it til ya try it!