Michigan Law

[juststarting2]

I don't know if this is the right place for this question but has any one ever challanged the state of michigan on there claim that Pachislos are not legal to own or sell in michigan.

[clau]

Hmmm, I wasn't aware that Michigan had this law. Can you point me in the direction of some reference material?

[juststarting2]

If you wish to talk with a representative, please call our Administrative Section at (517)-241-0040.
Thank you,
Eric T. Bush
Administrative Manager
Michigan Gaming Control Board They will transfer you to state attorney's office they state that it's there veiw that they are slot machines therefore they are not 25 years old or older and are illegal.but it has never been tested in court.I have my lawyer checking into it right now and was wandering if anybody has told them to go hug a tuna until they can prove it in a court of law.

[Lddrizzt]

Has anyone had this thought?
"Hmmmm, Pachislos might kinda fall into the grey area, Maybe I should just enjoy them and not bring attention to myself."

No it seems most have this thought:
"Hmmmm, Pachislos might kinda fall into the grey area, Maybe I should just call the authorities to come on over and try my 6 machines and make a descision on how leagal they are, so I know if I wasted all this money or not."

[juststarting2]

What if you want to have a store? Should I go to jail because I did not check out the laws?( I thought they where legal) is no defence in court.

[clau]

Certainly my concern would not be whether or not they are legal to own. I wouldn't call and ask anyone if I may keep them. But, what if I decide to throw one in my garage sale? Could I be ticketed for selling one? It would be good to know the risk before making the move.

[johntofva]

I wonder if a pack of cards are illegal to own. They have just as much potential to be used for gambling as a pachislo. The idea of prohibiting the use of anything like this seems unconstitutional. They sell casino programs for computers which can be used just as easily. But, I guess nothing about the government makes a lot of since.

[juststarting2]

Clau,The section of the michigan penal code concerning slot machines is MCL 750.303 I was told when i asked if they were legal they said it all depends on how you interpret the law but its there veiw that they are iilegal.

[clau]

It just so happens that I work at a law firm so I will see what I can find out.

[PropWash]

Any word on this? (being a Michigander looking to sell pachislo machines). I know these machines are sold at auction in Michigan all of the time, but I'm sure that easily falls under the eyes of the law.

[_Zaphod_]

There are two possible defenses to the "not a slot machine" bit

One is the skill defense, but that one is weak to anyone who's actaully seen the patent. Still you can try and pull th ewool over their eyes.

the other is they are token only machines, and pachi tokens are worthless in the USA except fr playing pachis. This is a stronger claim, but it's not without it's counter arguments. That said, many states will accept it.

[monaghj]

Well some of the big dealers out there have postings like below....

My interpertation is that if you clearly state that the machine is token operated, for home amusement only, commerical use prohibited you should be in the clear.

"Sams club" sell them in PA - and slots are banned here prior to 1941 vintage. Perhaps check out your areas SAMs and if Sam sells them you have a larger precidence than any laywer will be able to give you.






Our interpretation of this policy is that since we have converted our coin slot machines to accept only tokens and pay out only in tokens, these slot machines may be listed on eBay regardless of their age, and buyers from all states may participate in these sales.

Slot machines that accept coins, example nickels, quarters and or currency, are treated as coin-operated slot machines and are prohibited in the following states: Alabama, California, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, and Oregon. Therefore, buyers and sellers in these states may not participate in those listings. I was notified directly from eBay that regardless to these illegal states, eBay will not allow the SALES of ANY COIN-OPERATED SLOT MACHINES and or SLOT MACHINES that accept CURRENCY to any STATE.

[PropWash]

I sent a copy of the Michigan law to a lawyer friend out of state.

As with anything related to law, its a matter of interpretation for law enforcement and the judicial system.

The annoying part is that I would be at risk of 'gambling' money to fund a legal campaign if law enforcement did not see it from my point of view.

[monaghj]

Well there are shell games around this.
1. Buy and Hold the machines under one entity. Register this in Nevada or Deleware.
Taxes are lower in these states anyways.

2. Sell the machines from entity1 to the retail biz entity2.

If your going to get in trouble its going to be with entity2 which has the potential for being complained against. This way if the sheriff decides to enforce they can only seize company assets from the instate company. All of your paper work will show that you are buying from an out of state supplier who would need to be supiened etc. Unless you really really p*ss someone off they are not going to go that far.

As you rack up losses in entity2. Since Entity1 sold them to you at a high price. If they seize the machines onsite you have really not lost everything in your warehouse nor can they come after other assets since its a limited company. I would suspect long before you every got a seisure you would get a court ordered cease and decist letter to stop selling these. In which case you shut entity2 down and become a ebayer like everyone else.

You may also want to get involved with some church groups so they can run their fund raisers. Of course you put forsale signs on each of the pashilos while they are on loan but it shows good community participation etc.

[_Zaphod_]

Our interpretation of this policy is that since we have converted our coin slot machines to accept only tokens and pay out only in tokens, these slot machines may be listed on eBay regardless of their age, and buyers from all states may participate in these sales..

Still illegal in CA unless 25 years or older.

The fact that it's possible to convert them back is good enough to make them outlawed. And een if it wer eimpossible to convert, the fact that it pays out wat it takes in (tokens) makes it not a redemption machine, and it's thus a slot machine.

[monaghj]

The Pashilos were never "converted" they were designed for tokens. In fact what most of the people who document quarter mods over-look is that the coin hopper does not work well with quarters. They frequently jam.

Since I have a number of vegas (IGT) quarter slots in addition to my Pashilos. I looked hard at converting the pashilos over to quarters. The hopper jamming on multiple models of pashilos I choose to convert my vegas models to tokens.

If you are really concerned about the quarter/token issue there are athe 30pai coins.

[PropWash]

FWIW: Here is a PDF to Michigan gaming regulations.
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http://www.michigan.gov/documents/f-rules1_6145_7.pdf

What is interesting how everything does SEEM to be worded to imply that if the tokens have no cash value, or cannot be redemmed for cash or cash value, they wouldnt be considered a gambling device.

Again, I'm not a lawyer.

[doodude]

Simplify, move to Texas!

[minnesotabrad]

Simplify, move to Texas!

Or to Minnesota...they are all legal here.

[PropWash]

Update:

I know 'hear-say' isnt the most reliable tool, but I visited a local amusement retailer in town (Kalamazoo, MI) who said that they heard of a few other companies in town getting cease-and-desist letters from the state in regards to pachislo machines.

Now, I dont think this has been challenged in Michigan courts, but worth noting.

A little scary when you have 480 machines enroute.