Pachinko Parlors in The U.S.

[candyflip]

The reason that Pachinko doesn't "take off" in the US is the difference in philosphies between the Japanese and people here in the US.

In Japan, although it is technically gambling, it's penny-ante gambling. It is extremely hard to lose big in Pachinko and thus win big in Pachinko.

Yeah sorry - don't agree at all.

Having lived and worked in Tokyo, and played actual parlor pachinko for many years, you can lose small fortunes. I'm afraid flicking your vintages at home is *nothing like* reality.

In parlors you can easily drop 10,000Yen in a matter of half an hour on a hungry modern. Some machines might take hours to payout, some won't at all. Total losses are usual - not an aberration. Lucky players can walk away with upwards of 100,000Yen, losers can do the same damage to themselves.

It's like almost any form of gambling - if you want to go large at it, you can.

However, your point on progressive jackpots etc are well made. Their is a scale difference with Vegas slots versus pachinko/pachislo - but I'm not sure it's the reason that pachinko wouldn't be a hit in America.

The actual limiting factor is of course the owners of casinos - who want greater throughput of $$.
Slots offer that - pachinko/slo's do not.

[p.opus]

Yeah sorry - don't agree at all.

Having lived and worked in Tokyo, and played actual parlor pachinko for many years, you can lose small fortunes. I'm afraid flicking your vintages at home is *nothing like* reality.

In parlors you can easily drop 10,000Yen in a matter of half an hour on a hungry modern. Some machines might take hours to payout, some won't at all. Total losses are usual - not an aberration. Lucky players can walk away with upwards of 100,000Yen, losers can do the same damage to themselves.

It's like almost any form of gambling - if you want to go large at it, you can.

While I agree that "flipping my vintages" at home is nothing like playing in a parlor, the machines still have physical limits to how much you can loose. In 1969 when the restrictions to the auto-loaders were lifted, the shooters were limited to 100 balls a minute.

This restriction has not been lifted as far as I know. Even moderns are still limited to 100 balls a minute. However auto-shooters mean I can just hold the shooter in place instead of actually flipping the ball with my thumb.

Your statement of losing 10,000 yen a half hour sounds about right. Ball rental is supposed to be around 4.5 yen per ball, so that would make 100 balls equal to $4.50. If a customer shot 6000 balls an hour without winning one jackpot he would lose $270.00 an hour. Significant, but nowhere near what you can lose in vegas.

By contrast, I played dollar slots last time I was in Vegas and dropped 100.00 in less than 10 minutes.

So yes, while flipping my vintage at home is no match for playing in a parlor, I can lose and shoot nearly just as many balls as anyone in a parlor. (Of course my thumb will fall off keeping a 100 ball per minute rate for a straight hour.)

[candyflip]

Pachinko and pachislo can be run anyway a foreign authority decides they might. The machines don't care.

If, for example, each token or ball was worth $1 in Vegas, you'd have a machine that could take $6000 an hour. Not bad.

But would a casino take a chance on an entirely new game, that might threaten it's existing ones, with no (gambling) history in America?

I hope so.

[The Rube]

At Mall of America (in Minneapolis, MN), we have a Japanese restaurant that has Pachinko Machines for free play.

Photo Gallery | Masu Sushi Robata
Screen shot 2013-05-24 at 8.51.21 PM.jpg

[rubberratt]

very cool

[The Rube]

I went to Mall of America and passed by Masu. Took some pics of their 3 machines. Thought you guys would want to take a look.
foodsign.jpgeva.jpgblee.jpgprojet.jpg

At Mall of America (in Minneapolis, MN), we have a Japanese restaurant that has Pachinko Machines for free play.

Photo Gallery | Masu Sushi Robata
Screen shot 2013-05-24 at 8.51.21 PM.jpg

[naha13]

I have that Bruce Lee model. It's my favorite modern machine👍

I went to Mall of America and passed by Masu. Took some pics of their 3 machines. Thought you guys would want to take a look.
foodsign.jpgeva.jpgblee.jpgprojet.jpg

[The Rube]

I think there would be more of a market for a Pachislo parlor than Pachinkos. I'm no expert but I would make this judgement based on three factors:

1) Because of the current similarity with US slot machines, Americans would be more inclined to play them. I think the whole concept of paying cash for a bucket full of ball bearings would just be too much for an average American. Pachinkos use tokens. tokens resemble quarters and quarters get turned into dollar bills ; nough said!
2) Because of Visual Animations on LCD screen, instead of traditional plastic playfield animatronic, a Pachincho machine could compete with a highend Vegas Slot Machine.
3) Because of just basic fear and common rudeness in most casinos, Americans would always be in fear of someone either stealing their precious little balls or knocking them over... especial senor citizens, which in my opinion do alot more gambling that any other age group.

I own a Arcade and most people of the current generation that never seen a arcade machine and still can't grasp where the quarters are supposed to go or that you have to press Player One to start a game... for reals! Now try to explain how a pachinko/pachislo machine/gambleing works... oh man, I can just imagine all the headaches. Also Pachinko Parlors (been to Japan twice) are just too F*CK'N LOUD for Americans.

Pachinkos and pachislo are fun to collect and are fun to play but I just don't see a profit in opening up a parlor on us soil.

[emmadog]

Yeah sorry - don't agree at all.

Having lived and worked in Tokyo, and played actual parlor pachinko for many years, you can lose small fortunes. I'm afraid flicking your vintages at home is *nothing like* reality.

In parlors you can easily drop 10,000Yen in a matter of half an hour on a hungry modern. Some machines might take hours to payout, some won't at all. Total losses are usual - not an aberration. Lucky players can walk away with upwards of 100,000Yen, losers can do the same damage to themselves.

It's like almost any form of gambling - if you want to go large at it, you can.

However, your point on progressive jackpots etc are well made. Their is a scale difference with Vegas slots versus pachinko/pachislo - but I'm not sure it's the reason that pachinko wouldn't be a hit in America.

The actual limiting factor is of course the owners of casinos - who want greater throughput of $$.
Slots offer that - pachinko/slo's do not.

Also interesting is the fact that balls are rented for a certain amount of yen each but when cashed back in, they are worth significantly less. One article stated that balls cost 4.5 yen but only worth 2.5 when redeemed. So you have to win 40% more balls than you rented just to break even. That's how they make money and the player loses money. That's also not taking into account the cut that the exchange house receives.
Great article: Pachinko Nation: Articles: Multimedia: Japan Society

[p.opus]

Also interesting is the fact that balls are rented for a certain amount of yen each but when cashed back in, they are worth significantly less. One article stated that balls cost 4.5 yen but only worth 2.5 when redeemed. So you have to win 40% more balls than you rented just to break even. That's how they make money and the player loses money. That's also not taking into account the cut that the exchange house receives.
Great article: Pachinko Nation: Articles: Multimedia: Japan Society

That is the article I read prior to when I made my comments earlier in this post. It is a great article

It was this statement that really made me comment on the "penny-ante" nature of the game.

To anyone who’s never played, and even to many who have, the game is grotesque. It’s horribly noisy. Parlors are smoky and unpleasant. While it’s true that no one ever loses too much at pachinko, no one ever wins much either. (Pachinko machines are programmed so that it is impossible to lose more than $2 a minute. Compare that to blackjack or slots or any American gamble, where you can easily lose thousands of dollars per hour. On the other hand, the biggest pachinko jackpots are worth only $50.) Pachinko is dreary. It’s no wonder it has never caught on anywhere else.

Of course this article was written over 10 years ago so it could be a lot different now.

However, one thing hasn't changed that I know of. Machines are still throttled to 100 balls a minute. This was a restriction when the Renpatsu-shiki (auto feeders) restrictions were lifted in 1969. To my knowledge, even the latest moderns with the auto-shooters still have 100 ball per minute restriction, which depending on the price of ball rental will limit loss. At 4.5 yen a ball, that's 4.50 a minute or $270.00 an hour considering a customer wins nothing within the hour.

Not even close to what you can lose in Vegas.

[p.opus]

Yes, Vegas could price each ball at .10 or even a 1.00 a piece, but here's the problem I see. Realize I'm basing my observations on a standard 15 ball payout on a vintage machine. I don't have any experience with "fever mode" on a modern, nor do I believe they have a standard 15 ball payout in their other pockets, but regardless of the payout, you'll get the idea.

In the long run, you almost never hit a 2:1 ratio of balls won to balls won. I've had my counters for awhile and I have yet to have "doubled" my money. In craps and roulette 2:1 is the MINIMUM payout. Blackjack has a regular 2:1 payout and 2.5 to 1 for a natural blackjack.

The best odd's in a vintage is to hit a jackpot within the first 15 balls, and if it opens a tulip I would go ahead and try to close any open tulips so I could get 30, 45, or 60 balls in the first 15 or so shots.

Here in lies the rub If the casino places the ball value too high, then I'll buy 15 balls and if I can grab a pot within the first 15 shots, I'm going to cash out real quick. If balls cost too much to buy and are valued too high, then I don't encourage the player to stay at the game.

As a casino owner, I have to place the ball value so low, that a person won't leave after winning the first one or two hits.

With the video modes and slot type elements in pachinko, it's much closer to vegas slots. However, to get the spin I have to hit a pot. Whereas in a normal slot machine, each coin gives me a spin, not just a "winning ball".

I think the best way you could get a pachinko game in vegas is to introduce "gold balls" or something similar where you have some high value balls in the ball system where you get 1x payout for each ball won, but a gold ball could pay 10 to 1 or even 100 to 1.

I still think that the reason pachinko doesn't take off here is because there is a fundamental philosophical difference in "Japanese Gambling" and "Western Gambling". I also believe that for the Japanese, the payout is secondary. I don't think most Pachinko players in Japan expect to win big. They are satisfied with breaking even, winning small, or losing small. It's about the game, it's about the ability to unwind, the winning is the frosting. The closest US gambling equivalent is blackjack. But even blackjack gives you the opportunity to win more than pachinko over the long run.

Just my .02.

[candyflip]

. Realize I'm basing my observations on a standard 15 ball payout on a vintage machine. I don't have any experience with "fever mode" on a modern, nor do I believe they have a standard 15 ball payout in their other pockets, but regardless of the payout, you'll get the idea.

In the long run, you almost never hit a 2:1 ratio of balls won to balls won. I've had my counters for awhile and I have yet to have "doubled" my money. In craps and roulette 2:1 is the MINIMUM payout. Blackjack has a regular 2:1 payout and 2.5 to 1 for a natural blackjack.

Pachinko is a fundamentally different game - there is no doubt.
Modern pachinko regularly pays more than double... but it takes a lot longer than in casinos on the games you mention that they offer.

Pachinko in the USA would need a different mindset to be successful - but all new things start this way.
It's about how they are introduced to soak up the local flavour.
Someone with vision and some forward thinking, could see that pachislots offer Vegas an entirely new way to think about their traditional Slot offerings, and who they might attract as a result.

[The Rube]

but I am kinda surprised that there isn't a handful of Pachinko Parlors in the USA, especially in Asian communities. You think there would be as least a couple her and there.

[MrGneiss]

I remember one of the Japanese venders thats sold stuff here several years back tried to get their slightly modified pachinkos into casinos..I think I remember some pics of them at a Vegas trade show.. I don't believe there was really much interest..

I've always said in this type of thread that the biggest problem with pachinko outside of Japan is that most people just don't "get" it.. Heck, a lot of PT members don't even get it!! There's also all the different gambling laws blah blah blah..

Even though (to us) pachis are super Rad, I just can't see pachis being popular anywhere that real gambling already exists..since it seems probably the main reason pachis even still exist in Japan is because its the only "gambling" they have.. From all I've read over the years, if real Vegas style gambling ever became legal in Japan, I don't think pachis would be long for this world..

[Five Brothers TC]

If anybody is ever in the DC metro area, they are more than welcome to schedule an appointment with us to play any of our pachinko/pachislo machines!

[Leorules]

Are there any Pachinko Parlors in The U.S., Like Arcades, not for Gambling Like in Japan, Just for Entertainment? I heard there is one in SanFran CA but I cant find any info about it online...

Yes in Wilmington NC it's called Pachinko World! www.facebook.com/PachinkoWorld

[Leorules]

YES in Wilmington NC a REAL Pachinko Parlor! www.pachinkoworldusa.com

[danno66]

pach.jpgThis pic is the first pod of 3 as it stands completed, next week we replace the machines with newer ones and add battle signs. I tried to take a front on picture but the brushed aluminum reflects me. I have these configured with ball channels and ball lifters, we put all machines on full and ran them for a few hours, all went well.

I was asked about the possibility of an overflowing top tray until I realized that the card readers dispense from there so there isn't one, if anything a jackpot could empty all 30k balls out of the main feed, oh well we'll see if it ever happens, I don't relish the idea of picking up a tray for counting.

I'd love to buy a tabletop counter like the NADA Hypercount NE 2800 however I can't get anyone to level with me when I call them, oh well, looks like I'll ruin a ball lifter by adding a hopper and some opto counters down the rail, I can use the same counters as the pachicount display although I'll be adding a wood rail and mount it on the wall so I can save my back, still I'd rather buy one so if you have leads or if you have one to sell, I'm looking.

For those of you who are interested, I'm planning to open to customers 3/20.

Peace, Dan

[Leorules]

The problem you will have with this kind of set up is you will HAVE to watch people at ALL times since they can just reach into the top of your games and grab more balls. Also we decided against the card readers for 2 reasons, 1)They are easily obtainable and programmable which means almost ANYONE can get a blank card and put as much as they want on them and 2)The machines dispense so few balls at a time. we have people that buy $20 worth at a time, at 2c each that's 1000 balls. I wish you well with this project, but I think you will run into a LOT of problems running it set up like this.

pach.jpgThis pic is the first pod of 3 as it stands completed, next week we replace the machines with newer ones and add battle signs. I tried to take a front on picture but the brushed aluminum reflects me. I have these configured with ball channels and ball lifters, we put all machines on full and ran them for a few hours, all went well.

I was asked about the possibility of an overflowing top tray until I realized that the card readers dispense from there so there isn't one, if anything a jackpot could empty all 30k balls out of the main feed, oh well we'll see if it ever happens, I don't relish the idea of picking up a tray for counting.

I'd love to buy a tabletop counter like the NADA Hypercount NE 2800 however I can't get anyone to level with me when I call them, oh well, looks like I'll ruin a ball lifter by adding a hopper and some opto counters down the rail, I can use the same counters as the pachicount display although I'll be adding a wood rail and mount it on the wall so I can save my back, still I'd rather buy one so if you have leads or if you have one to sell, I'm looking.

For those of you who are interested, I'm planning to open to customers 3/20.

Peace, Dan

[danno66]

Hi Leo,
I learned a few things when I ran the SFO club, the first and most important one was to have every place on camera or... people will
find where there isnt one and fall and sue you.

Here we tried a new approach, the machines are sealed in a wall with airflow, the tube from the emergency fillers are S shaped.
There is a Central Hopper and ball lifters feeding the machines, in the event the central goes empty the ball lifters can be made to direct
fill. In the event someone wants to hijack the cards this could be a problem. Each card has on it a sticker, in turn that sticker houses a sensor
which is the same one we attach to pharmaceutical jars to prevent theft, it's not hackable by the average person. If anyone inserts a card
into the wall slot and it has no sensor, the machine won't play and then, we see a light on the console which basically means throw this
person out. I have roaming staff who will be watching as will the cameras so I hope we're ok. I could always use cards to activate the shooter and
give balls out at a counter but it's a lot of work. When we have large jackpots I can see the main hopper going dry, it holds 6K and that's it, the machines hold a little enroute but it's reused, we tell staff to catch jackpots and start filling the emergency feed before the rest of the place
gets dry, if it were only one side I could put a car sized hopper but the split means one side of the room has 6K, the other has around 2500.
The one thing that bit me in SFO and will bite me here is theft of balls, I would lose 20 a day, it adds up, this time I have better surveillance so
with any luck the patrons will not want a souvenier. I also have doubts about people being mature enough not to try and bounce pachinko balls off of
my full sized pinball playfield glass. But, the penalty is lifetime ban, if they break it they get prosecuted. In a year I will be allowed to use bill
changers, our laws are bad, local laws are worse, I could wait and open next year with bill validators (escrow units), I have plenty of them but
even arcade games need the permit so I operate free play by the hour for now on the arcade machines, it's not the rule which angers me it's the
wait time, I was told it could be "as fast as 8 months" and that was 2 months ago however 6 months is still too long.
Thanks for the help, I should add that I put each machine on a power system which is way overkill, but I barely pull 1 amp under maximum
play and 3 reaches (it took a lot of work to get this) it's so nice when a transformer does not get over it's posted temperature 60C, my other place got very hot and needed aircon all the time, hereit won't, I ducted the air properly.

Do you guys ever get people stealing the balls?? If so how do you stop them or is my attitude of "Cost of doing business" normal..

Cheers, Dan