What's fair to expect from vendors and Ebay sellers?

[pfurman]

I've given this matter a lot of thought, especially after having purchased/won over 80 machines in the past few months. But I'd like to hear what other members think.

One of the main things I've noticed that has really begun to get on my nerves is the paint jobs that are common to almost every single vendor/seller except those that offer lamination as an option. The paint looks great when the machine first arrives, but in no time gray areas appear simply from touching the paint or wiping it with a soft cloth. To me, this is absurd and totally unacceptable. And it doesn't matter whether it's from a premium vendor or not. This has happened on all 4 machines from Big Bear, all 10 machines from Milt, every machine from Pachislott777, etc. B/F and I spent the past few weeks repainting every single machine. It's both frustrating and amazing to us that no one else seems to notice or complain about this.

A more general issue is: Since these machines are almost always bought sight unseeen, it depends on the seller to disclose the true condition of the machines. In that regard, Big Bear has been the most upfront with regard to his scratch and dent machines. He includes photos that let you actually see exactly how each machine looks. Milt has photos with descriptions of his scratch and dents, but the photos aren't really that clear or close up enough to allow you to see what's what. I think what's beginning to bug me is the feeling that many vendors palm off their scratch and dent machines without really listing them as such. For example, we got a Machine Gun Santa with 5 12" long diagonal scratches right across the reel glass that you could feel with your fingernail and see from across the room that somehow eluded the descripiton of that particular machine. To me, that type of situation goes way beyond the usual "wear and tear" that these machines go through; to me, that machine qualified as a scratch and dent, and should have been listed as such, but it was not.

The same goes for significant overspray of black paint. B/F and I have spent hours cleaning up black dots/overspray from one of the more "premier" vendors mentioned here on this site frequently. Again, that to my way of thinking is unacceptable. We've also gotten machines with very major scratches on the chrome, dirty reels and/or reels with noticeable dimples/holes, burnt out lights upon delivery, broken wires, non-operational coin slots, etc. To a certain extent, I understand and accept the fact that these machines are used and are not in perfect condtion. However, since most of these machines are described as refurbished to the best condtion that they can be in, when I can get a machine to a significantly better level than when it arrived, that says to me that that machine had NOT been adequately refurbished. I do not expect perfect machines; I do expect machines to be as reconditioned as they can be. And to repeat, as far as I'm concerned, the fact that these machines are shipped out sight unseen, and are expensive to return, puts the sellers at a distinct advantage, and I believe that some of them take advantage of that imbalance.

[Tulsa]

Well on the paint, I prefer to laminate my machines with:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-010

It gives the machines a great look and it's about a 5 minute job to install.

On the over-spray. As a recipient of the over-spray machine, I hate it. It happens and all you can do it get your fingernail handy and start scratching. Yes, one of our premier vendors has a problem in this category and it really should be addressed.

Scratch and dents. Well if they make you aware at all, it's head and shoulders better than some will. I received the most pitted machine from one vendor and they couldn't for the life of them understand why I was upset. After all they are used! Sure they are, but they aren't supposed to be junk yard material.

[pfurman]

On the over-spray. As a recipient of the over-spray machine, I hate it. It happens and all you can do it get your fingernail handy and start scratching. Yes, one of our premier vendors has a problem in this category and it really should be addressed.

Scratch and dents. Well if they make you aware at all, it's head and shoulders better than some will. I received the most pitted machine from one vendor and they couldn't for the life of them understand why I was upset. After all they are used! Sure they are, but they aren't supposed to be junk yard material.

Exactly!

[dalto]

To answer your question, I think what is fair to expect is that the machine is delivered as described in their ad.

As for the paint, I imagine the margins are too thin on most machines to be painting these with high-quality paint.

To agree with your comments, I also received a machine with significant and obvious paint over spray from one of the recommended vendors here and had to invest a lot of time removing it. I found this a little unnacceptable and very frustrating. I have not bought another machine from him since. It seems like that particular vendor has some issues with this.

[slotter]

Sometimes you just cannot tell on the vendors. My two best condition machines came from vendors who are considered here, at the best, questionable. A couple of my most beat up machines came from recommended vendors. (The beat up machines were compensated for by extra tokens, etc., but should they have been sent out that way?)

Go figure.

[cwstnsko]

Most of the vendors seem to stick with flat black paint, probably because it hides irregularities better. I'm lucky that I bought many of my machines from jacagan (Zcore13), he used satin or semi-gloss, I believe. The flat black ones come back to an even finish with a wipe of Isopropyl Alcohol, but they are a pain in the butt. Personally, I consider scratched chrome, a crack in a lens, or one or two tiny dimples in the reels to make a machine "scratch and dent" anything worse makes it a "Clunker" or a parts machine. Clunkers I keep for myself, they play just fine Parts machines I keep too. They give their lives so that others may live. I guess that makes them organ donors

[chaz70]

Pfurman, The vendors should use a semi-gloss paint, but they don't. I agree with you 100%, it really sucks.

The local vendor I have near me uses semi-gloss and the machines look and stay looking awesome. Too bad he wants way too much money for his machines. I saw a King Camel go for $400 just before x-mas.

It really wouldn't be too hard to cover, tape and paint these machines with a spray semi-gloss. I would not spray the back because of all the openings unless you have them where you can see the backs.

[websherpa]

Can we name the over-spraying vendor... at least that way it puts pressure on them to correct the situation (a littl emasking tape goes a long way).

[chaz70]

I don't see why not........ Both my machines from Stealth have a little over spray here and there on various parts of the machines. Nothing that bad, but I would of had newspaper covering these parts when painted.

[coronetgtx]

I personally think the names of the vendors should be posted. As all good things have been posted about them. As stated in a earlier response here, it would make vendor aware of problems they are having with their " totally refurbished" machines.

[minnesotabrad]

I understand the frustrations you guys have had. I too have received machines in great condition from vendors others have had problem with and machines in not so great from vendors everyones seems to sing praises of. I took a machine that I was told of a couple marks on the chrome and got pictures of it. I took it because I was told it was the last machine they had and I really wanted one. When I got it not only had the problem I was told about, it also had and still does the lock mechanism pushed in,bent a little and has a gap around the lock. I do not think that I would have been willing to spend the money on the machine that I did if I knew of all the damage.

[arbycoffee]

that is why there is no half way, what not is said can be worse that what is said.

[pfurman]

As I was reading and thinking about what's been posted so far, the following old saying popped into my head: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". The way I see that applying here is that anyone, myself included, who has received a less than acceptable machine from any vendor and has chosen to not address that directly with that vendor deserves whatever happens the next time around. We finally decided - along with my starting this thread - to contact every vendor who is sending us machines with unacceptable paint jobs, undisclosed scratches/dents, etc., and state our feeling that it is unacceptable.

Additionally, we have really cut back significantly on bidding/ordering machines until such time as we get some sort of assurance from these vendors that they have taken the necessary steps to rectify the problems. I mean, how much more could it possibly cost to use a decent satin or semi-gloss paint, vs. a lousy flat paint? And frankly, I'd rather they charge more and have something we don't need to automatically repaint. (And, from our experience, it's not just the finish that makes the difference. We tried Rustoleum semi-gloss and had the same problem with it "graying" just by touching it. It wasn't until we switched to Behr semi-gloss that the problem stopped.)

With regard to who's selling what/in what condition, etc., we've experienced the graying of the flat black paint from Big Bear, Milt (Demos777 on Ebay), Valley Gaming, & Pachislot777. We've experienced the overspray from Milt & Pachinko Palace (Grandview). By far, we've had the best experience dealing with Gaku/Big Bear in terms of customer service, although Milt has been pretty good as well. We are definitely of the belief that the more people push these vendors for higher quality, the more likely it will happen.

As far as undisclosed scratch and dent machines, the worse ones we've gotten have been from Pachislot777. (3 machines in a row had at least one reel with a noticeable dimple/hole; one machine had 5 12" long diagonal scratches right across the reel glass; one had a non-functional coin slot; one had heavily scratched chrome; a Twist machine came through with a noticeably damaged cabinet and no front decal.) They did their best to make good on whatever they could, but it began to be a real headache dealing with all the problems.

One machine from Gaku had a broken cable that attaches to the front door (the one that lets you reset by turning the door key to the left) and he sent a replacement as soon as we made him aware of the problem.

One machine from Milt had two semi-broken stop buttons and he sent a replacement assembly as soon as we made him aware of the problem.

The one machine we've gotten so far from Pachinko Palace was missing the two screws that secure the entire reel assembly. B/F called 10 minutes after he took it out of the box, got a kind of runaround from tech support, said to himself (some pun intended) "Screw it", went to Home Depot and got the right size metal screws he needed, and fixed it himself. He was not very pleased, to say the least, with how that all went down. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but if these vendors continue to do business like this, they're going to have to do it with other folks, because we just won't tolerate it .

[slotter]

Thanks for the review, pfurman. That was an excellent rundown of your experiences.

No vendor will be perfect to every seller every time, but the good vendors will try their best to satisfy if made aware of any problems.

[cwstnsko]

One of the questions we have to ask ourselves is; How much more are we willing to pay for finely detailed machines? I know I've taken every machine I've purchased from any seller and re-detailed it to meet my standards. It generally takes an hour or more.

I always make sure that the machines I sell don't need the same treatment, but I'm selling machines as a hobby, and therefore place very little value on my time. I can tell you that none of us would want to pay for my detailing if I was charging what I make at my day-job

People act confused when they pick out a machine in my garage and I ask them to stick around or come back in an hour or so. Even if I detailed the machine a few days earlier, it'll need almost an hours worth of attention if it's been sitting in the garage being played by every potential buyer that walks through.

Oddly enough, I almost always seem to hit a bonus of some sort during the final testing. If I know the seller will appreciate it, I'll leave it in bonus mode when I pack it up

[slotter]

All my machines have taken nearly 8 hours each to be put into the condition I want them. Some much more. Every square inch (inside and out) has been cleaned with Q-tips, toothpicks, etc. Scratches and nicks are all polished out until invisible or gone, etc. But, that isn't to say they weren't shipped in reasonable condition... I just want them as perfectly cleaned and polished as is possible.

[scooby_doo_m2002]

No offense to you guys and gals, but dang you guys must be picky!!!!!!!! either that or I need to raise my standards. When I get a machine I am like a kid in a candy store, carefully cut the box open, slide it off the machine and where ever the box lands behind me after flying over my head is where it stays. (until wife threatens the life of the pachi) (this does NOT reflect the condition of our house, if wife finds a dust bunny she acts as if she has seen a spider.)The most cleaning I have done to a machine was windex the inside and outside of the reel glass. But yet, I am a low life and have no friends. Hince, I get excited when younger brother gets dumped off by my parents. 99.9% of the time the only company we have is lil bro and the mail lady. Ups and fed ex stops by once in awhile. So maybe thats why I don't give the cleaning treatment that I should.

[vespacar]

A smart vendor will take notice and say offer:

Standard machine: Comes in flat black, refurbished etc No extra charge.

Upgraded machine: Comes in either a Gloss Black or High Gloss Black for $10.0 0 to $20.00 more. Other colours avaiable, price on App.

Premium Machine: Comes in verner from list. Price on App. say $20.00

Custom orders take an extra 2-3 days to process.


Cheers,
James

[alstonj1]

i must agree some people do have a felex unger approch to these machines here and do need to get a grip.But i must say you need to get a machine from one of these chain stores like sams club to appreciate what you have and to see what a machine looks like coming off the floor at a parlor .i have kids and the best i can hope for is just finger prints on the outside of the machine but when i worked on a machine for a friend at work that came from sams club i dam near hit the floor it was down right disgusting and my kids couldnt make mine like that if they smoked a carton a day in front of it and this machine was supposedly refirbished and guarenteed for life !!!!! and im the oscar madison to the felex's on the board .......

[luckydog]

I spend more time playing mine then cleaning them.

I don't expect perfection, they are used, not new and I take that into consideration.

The few complaints i have had were taken care of by all the dealers one way or another.

Of course my Bunny Girls from Arby was perfect