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Thread: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

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    Eye Shooter Gmwd's Avatar
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    Default Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Hi all,
    Im a bit stumped on a mr fall hanemono i recently aquired. I got it as "broken". Turns out a capacitor is spewing smoke. No big deal right ? The diode connected with it was also weak so replaced the diode and cap. (16k 1000uf). Tried it and immediately blew again. Kind of stumped as to what else could cause just that capacitor to fail repeatably and no other issue (machine turns on and works for the 30 seconds before the cap blows/spews smoke again) attached are photos of the board.

    Capacitor in question is designation c34 replaced diode is d9. Capacitor is removed from board


    If you have a board for me fall hanemono please dm me what youd like for it...or really any hanemono parts or parts machines 20170902_193708.jpg20170902_193715.jpg
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    Eye Shooter hkp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Perhaps the cap you are replacing it with is not rated for a high enough voltage? When you replace a capacitor, you should try to keep the same capacitance rating, but if the replacement capacitor is rated for a higher voltage, it will have no ill effects on the circuit behavior. Running a higher voltage than the capacitor is rated for will cause it to self destruct.

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Difficult to say without seeing the board in person, It looks like that part of the circuit board is voltage regulation. I'd check the bridge rectifier for shorts/open/leaky diodes, and the regulator IC that the cap is across. If it is part of the a switch mode regulator circuit, then I'd expect that the cap will need to be a low ESR type, and a regular one is likely to fail quickly. Also check the spec of the diode you replaced, it might not be a standard rectifier type, so make sure you use the correct replacement.

    Look for the datasheet of the 8 pin Sharp switch mode regulator IC, and trace the surrounding components comparing them with the example circuits from the datasheet. You should be able to find out if any of the components need to be a special type from there.

    With a switch mode regulator, then you rarely get a successful repair by just replacing the components that have physically failed. You need to find the cause, and that usually requires running it up 'soft' (with a lower current limited input voltage, and with the output connected to a dummy load), and then checking the operation with an oscilloscope. If that sounds too complicated, then just 'shotgun' the circuit and replace all semiconductors/ICs, and any caps used in the reference part of the circuit, and check each of the resistors with a meter.

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    Eye Shooter Gmwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Thank you both HKP and Daverob. Much appreciated information. I do believe the V.regulator is testing as NG so I will get some on order, I've replaced the cap (and have spares) of direct replacement of at least what was in the board (all caps are matching brand so assuming correct). The rectifier I will look into how to test and report back.

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    It's difficult to see the connections in the photo of the bottom of the circuit board, as there's camera glare right on top of the connections for D9, (and the fact that I'm recovering from an eye operation, so not seeing quite so well, and can only manage a short time in front of the computer!)...

    It looks like a standard configuration for an 8 pin SMPSU chip with a current boost transistor (the one on the heatsink next to D9). In which case you'd need to replace the Sharp chip (an MC34063 should be an easily obtainable equivalent), D9 (it must be replaced with a Schottky barrier rectifier, such as a 1N5819), the small electrolytic cap next to D9, and the transistor on the heatsink next to D9. Also make sure that both replacement capacitors are a 'low ESR' type and a 105 degree temperature version, simply matching the value/voltage/brand won't be enough in this case.

    This should get the power supply back up and running, but it may not resurrect the board as if there's been smoke out of C34, then it's likely that the output voltage of the PSU section will have been too high, and could have caused further damage.

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Hi Dave,

    the head sinked chip is designator
    TR22 on the silk screen, the component lable is: a1396.

    I have ordered replacement 1N5819. I will search for a replacement for MC34063/A1396. When I get home I will get the numbers off the capacitors and verify they are low ESR replacements and replace the smaller one next to D9 as well.

    I will up load better photos of the bottom and top of the board in the sections we are talking about tonight when I get home from work, thank you very much for all the help ! (and I hope a speedy recovery for you!)

    Hopefully we can revive this ones board, the machine is beautiful with the exception of...well you know....not working .


    Edit: For what its worth I have asked if these capacitors are low ESR as they are not labeled directly so on the packaging
    but they are this: NIchicon UVZ1C102MPD 1000uF 16V 105C capacitors.

    Hopefully I'll hear back and they will say they are, but I am doubtful so have ordered correct replacements that are clearly listed as "low ESR 105C 16V 1000uF 105C Capactitors"

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    Eye Shooter Gmwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    The "hopeful" bright side is that if you play the machine while the cap holds for the 30 seconds or so everything is appearing to work correctly, so hopefully nothing terrible has happened further down stream and if so....wellll hopefully we can fix that too

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    daverob is the guru for electronics; I pretty much dabble in it (and many other things). I would tend to believe that if it worked correctly each time the cap was replaced, it will work correctly once the power issue is completely resolved.

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Thats the hopes!

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    If you're still searching for the A1396 transistor, you might have better luck finding it as a 2SA1396. The Japanese always seem to drop the '2S' from their 2SA.... and 2SC.... range of transistors.

    As for being a 'guru', I'm not sure I'm there yet! I know my way around electronics, but I've worked with people that make me look like a first year student.

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Hi Dave,
    Thank you for that I was having some issues locating that part number . Also did not have time to retake photos of the board but will do so asap (thank you for hanging in there with me)

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    I pulled the cpu board out of my Monroe and opened it up. The capacitor is indeed a 1000uf at 16v. It filters the output of the 2SA1396 after it passes through the coil in the center (L1), then goes on to the input of the 7805.

    First, without the cap installed, I would check in voltage at the point. If it's above about 12 volts, I would go looking for trouble in the 2SA1396 circuit. The voltage will go up with the capacitor installed and the DC properly filtered. If not, there's not much else to go wrong. You DO realize these have a polarity, don't you? Positive goes to the white bar printed on the board. If installed backward, they will go poof.

    I'll leave the board out of my machine for a few days in case you have any more questions.

    HTH's and best of luck.
    pachinkoparts.com - Home Page
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Hi Browne,
    I appreciate you pulling your board (jealous you have a Monroe )I do believe the tr22 designator is shot (36v with capacitor removed) I have one on order just waiting it out. Once a couple of those come in I'll be able to continue testing

    Yes to polarity but double checked to ensure correct

    again in thank you very much !

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    Tokie Owens MonsterTako's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Wow, great info!
    Any chance that's the machine I cannot find on CL anymore? It was a beautiful machine. I think it was in Los Angeles, and your in Illinois?

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Hi MonsterTako, this on was in Chicago Illinois

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Gmwd View Post
    I do believe the tr22 designator is shot
    Are you talking about the 2SA1396? My board has that as TR18. Yes, it could be shorted, or something could be telling it to pass the supply voltage unchanged. I might take my board up to work and see if I can come up with a least a partial schematic.
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    Yessir that chip is TR22 on mine. Schematic would be awesome

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    That probably means there are some differences in the way the boards were made. A schematic of mine might not be as helpful as you hope. But we'll see.
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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    The transistor and cap are part of a switch mode PSU, if you run it without the cap installed, you will get the input voltage at the output, it's simply the way it works!

    In the most basic terms a power supply like this connects the full input voltage to the output capacitor for as long as it takes for it to charge up to the correct output voltage, it then switches the input voltage off, and waits for the capacitor to discharge a bit, it then pulses the input voltage for very short periods to top up the charge on the capacitor to maintain the output at the desired voltage. When it's running properly, you don't see the input voltage pulses on the capacitor due to the coil being in series and making an LC circuit, but remove the capacitor and you'll get the full input voltage at the output.

    While making measurements on a conventional linear PSU would be fine with the capacitor removed. It is really not recommended to run a switch mode psu like this as the high output voltage could easily cause further damage to the circuit. For example 36v is around the absolute maximum input for a 7805, and if this voltage causes it to fail, then all the logic chips on the rest of the board are toast, so definitely not worth the risk in my opinion.

    If you really must measure the output voltage, install a sacrificial capacitor first, and try to measure before it blows up again.

    To do it safely, you'd run the board from a current limited variable power supply, and start it at a low voltage and slowly ramp it up until the SMPSU starts oscillating, whilst measuring the rise in output voltage. Ideally you'd have a dummy load on the output, so it wouldn't damage the rest of the board if the SMPSU fails to regulate the output voltage properly. But if you slowly increase the input voltage, you can usually spot what's failed before the output reaches dangerous levels.

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    Default Re: Hanemono Mr Fall, capacitor issue

    I really don't think it's that complex. The sense pin is just a comparitor. If the voltage is above the reference, it won't fire. When it drops below, it will. But none of that really matters. Like I said, the transistor is either shorted (simple check with a meter) or something is telling it to stay on. Which would most likely be the IR3M03A, or it could be an open resistor (the 10K to pin 5).

    First picture is my board. It appears Gmwd's has an addition power supply off to the right which would explain the difference in component numbering.

    Second picture is my best shot at a schematic. Don't take it as gospel. Please forgive the sloppiness of the drawing. Essential Tremors. A gift from my mother.

    For troubleshooting, you really don't need to sacrifice any more capacitors. Just tack in a 1000uf 50V. But if it's going to take a while to trouble shoot, you might want to remove the 7805 and replace it with a dummy load (a few 12v lamps in series should do). You're getting dangerously close to the Absolute Maximum Rating on the input voltage, and if the logic is drawing anywhere near the 1 amp rating, that baby's going to get hot in a hurry.

    Best of luck! I'm going to put Marilyn back together now.

    IMG_20170911_112858364.jpgIMG_20170911_112727719.jpg
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