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Thread: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

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    Eye Shooter p.opus's Avatar
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    Default Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    I got my Yamato CR1 today and on initial inspection, I think installing a Gaku counter on this will be nearly impossible.

    For one, the shooter is located in the center of the cell not to the right. I can put a counter above the hammer track, but it will take some creativity to route the sensor wires back to the back of the machine.

    If that was the worst of my problems, it would be bad enough. However, I looked at the jackpot payout motor and it's even more distressing. The lumina frame had a single motor which directed all the balls down a single hole. There was an opening below the hole that made installing a payout sensor a breeze.

    The Oval frame has a payout hole for each track in the jackpot supply and uses alternating teeth to move the appropriate ball to its hole. As a result, the balls are falling through two holes, not one. To add insult to injury the whole thing is sealed.

    I'm wondering if anyone successfully installed a Gaku counter on this style machine. I'm half inclined to install a battle counter instead as that will probably be able to keep track of my balls. If I add a DaveRob Dongle and a true battle counter, I think it might be easier.

    Any suggestions?
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Eye Shooter p.opus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Ok, I did a little more looking and I have an idea The jackpot supply has two holes, one for each lane. If I connected two win sensors in parallel to the same mount, then I could mount them side by side and as each ball passes the individual sensor in it's appropriate lane That should work.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Eye Shooter heima's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    I am kind of in the same boat to install the gaku counter on my Docker. Payouts from 3 of the four pockets, the start, and the tulip are 5 balls. The fourth pocket and fever gate is 15 balls. To handle this, a separate inductive sensor is on the fourth pocket and at the fever gate.

    So to get my total balls won, I would have to put the sensor on the path of the payout mechanism. This means constricting the path that the balls follow. Could you imagine the backup if I hit a fever?

    I get the feeling (call me swift) that the gaku counter was created for vintage pachinkos and really old moderns. (yeah, where have I been?)
    Da' Horse!

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by heima View Post
    I am kind of in the same boat to install the gaku counter on my Docker. Payouts from 3 of the four pockets, the start, and the tulip are 5 balls. The fourth pocket and fever gate is 15 balls. To handle this, a separate inductive sensor is on the fourth pocket and at the fever gate.

    So to get my total balls won, I would have to put the sensor on the path of the payout mechanism. This means constricting the path that the balls follow. Could you imagine the backup if I hit a fever?

    I get the feeling (call me swift) that the gaku counter was created for vintage pachinkos and really old moderns. (yeah, where have I been?)
    Actually that's not true. There are settings on the counter whic allows it to use a "win ball" on a vintage to represent a 15 ball win, so it works well on vintages.

    However, I have a Star Wars modern that has 3, 5, 10 and 15 ball payouts and the Gaku works great on that. The secret is the location of the win sensor.

    Instead of putting them at the pocket, put the sensor at the exit of the payout motor. The payout computer will determine the payout depending on which pocket is hit, and release the appropriate number of balls. If the win sensor is set to count individual balls, I can count each ball as it exits the payout motor. On the lumina frame it works like a champ and is really easy to install. You just have to set the Gaku win DIP switches so that each ball represents a single ball in the balls won column.

    My problem is that the Oval Frame does not have a common payout hole. As the payout motor turns, it cause an alternate ball from each lane to exit through its own hole. Thus I can't count all the balls with a single sensor. I'm thinking two sensors next to each other monitoring the exit of the payout motor should do the trick.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    I did some research and battle counters really won't cut it. They don't keep track of your ball count because it's not really a data point you would need an a parlor. I'm going to take off the payout motor tonight and see where I need to grind away the plastic to install the two sensors.

    The oval frame may be great for swapping cells, but it's non standard shooter config and payout motor makes me long for the accessability of a Lumina frame.

    I have either a bad LED or misalligned LED in one of the center feature items and I have absolutely no idea how to get to it...really frustrating.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Kungishi CarlW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Maybe too late... How about one WIN sensor lower in the machine. Right before they get back to the shooting tray?
    how do you use 2 win sensors? If they are in parallel either one would feedback (cancel) the other one? I don't know! I'd breadboard it first... Just 2 free cents...

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlW View Post
    Maybe too late... How about one WIN sensor lower in the machine. Right before they get back to the shooting tray?
    how do you use 2 win sensors? If they are in parallel either one would feedback (cancel) the other one? I don't know! I'd breadboard it first... Just 2 free cents...

    I would test it first. I'm not sure what the signal is. I guess I'm working on simple on off voltage. I am assuming that the payout sensor is like a normally open switch and when a ball passes in front of it, it closes the circuit to allow voltage to pass. In that way if one was closed and the other open in parallel, there would be no problem. The only problem would be if both closed at the same time, The resulting signal would have the voltage drop across both branches simultaneously and thus would look like a single hit to the board when in fact it's two.

    The design of the payout sensor prevents two balls passing through twice because the gears are offset. So that's not an issue.

    However, tonight I looked closer an you are right. Further down the payout chute the balls go to a common area. I think there are some places there I can put it. The problem is it is completely sealed so I'm going to have to be pretty sure where I want it before I start grinding plastic. I'm gonna take apart the payout system tonight and examine it. There might be some internal areas I can mount the sensor then just run the leads out of the chute. It's gonna take some tinkering. Of course I'll document it and post pics if I get it running.

    Last night a found a penetration to run the shot sensor through. Even that is challenging because the shooter on the frame is in the center of the frame not on the right side. But it appears that may be my saving grace. There are almost no penetrations to the front of the board except on the left side of the playfield. Since the shooter is in the middle, I may have enough wiring to actually route the cable to the left side of the playfield and go that way.

    This by far is the most challenging Gaku install I've ever done. But I gotta do it. My star wars is so much nicer because of the counter because I can keep a running tab of total net balls won.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Did a disassembly of the jackpot payout system last night and found some good and bad.

    The good is that the system works exactly as I thought. The payout motor is geared to two cams. Those two cams are fed by each lane in the jackpot supply chute. The cams are off set so that the balls used to payout are taken from each lane alternately (e.g. left,right,left). Also, both lanes eventually merge together

    The Bad is that the place where they merge is deeper (basically two lanes become one big lane) so a sensor there has little chance of counting all the balls.

    The idea of using two sensors in parallel seems fine on paper but thinking about it, the sensors do have a load to power the sensor, so hooking two in parallel would at best lower the sensitivity of each sensor. So that's not an option.

    The second thought is to grind out the divider wall between the two walls and direct one of the lanes to the other lane after exiting the payout motor so that all the balls travel down one lane. I can put the sensor further down this lane. This will require a permanent somewhat destructive modification to the payout system. I don't like doing it, but others make their machines cyclic and this would be easier than that. I'm seriously giving this some thought. Since the payout gears are off set, there is not a big chance of creating a jam.

    The third thought is simply to count one lane and then double my count. I'm not a big fan of doing the math I'm already doing something similar with my Hanemono All 11 which the sensor is set to count 10. (total won= indicated won + (indicated won/10)). And even so, because of the way it's setup, there's a chance I would be one ball off, Not a big deal, but if I'm doing the math, might as well be exact.

    I'm going to take the chute off again today and see how hard it would be to grind out the channel divider and glue a rerouter in.

    Some thought needed here.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Kungishi Wayne-Ooo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    This all sounds like my Popeye machine, by Sammy. The payout motor pays out the same as yours, alternating balls side by side. These drop into a channel that is about 2 1/2 balls wide and goes to the payout tray. So, what I did was gradually angle the channel into one ball wide, so the balls could be counted. Works Great!

    The shooter sensor was a little different also. The hammer that strikes the ball is on the left of the machine and basically shoots the ball straight up into the playfield. So, the sensor had to be mounted on the lower door that opens, below the top glass.
    Wayne's Game Room

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne-Ooo View Post
    This all sounds like my Popeye machine, by Sammy. The payout motor pays out the same as yours, alternating balls side by side. These drop into a channel that is about 2 1/2 balls wide and goes to the payout tray. So, what I did was gradually angle the channel into one ball wide, so the balls could be counted. Works Great!

    The shooter sensor was a little different also. The hammer that strikes the ball is on the left of the machine and basically shoots the ball straight up into the playfield. So, the sensor had to be mounted on the lower door that opens, below the top glass.
    A pic on how you modified the payout channel would be great. I figure I need some plexi, some epoxy and a dremmel tool to make this work.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Kungishi Wayne-Ooo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Well, a picture is most likely not coming to soon. I would have to tear apart the machine to get a picture and then put it back together. But, we'll see what happens.

    I like using aluminum coil stock, instead of Plexiglas, you can bend sharp corners or gradual curves or what ever you need for the situation. It can be glued in with contact cement. And using a Dremmel Tool always makes the job easier.
    Wayne's Game Room

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne-Ooo View Post
    Well, a picture is most likely not coming to soon. I would have to tear apart the machine to get a picture and then put it back together. But, we'll see what happens.

    I like using aluminum coil stock, instead of Plexiglas, you can bend sharp corners or gradual curves or what ever you need for the situation. It can be glued in with contact cement. And using a Dremmel Tool always makes the job easier.
    Aluminum coil stock. I'll have to see what that is. sounds interesting. I'll google it and see if I can find it. Don't worry about the pic, I can see how that would be a pain. I thought maybe you might have documented it while you did it.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Kungishi Wayne-Ooo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    Aluminum coil stock is what is used to "wrap" the wood on windows, doors and gutter boards on houses. It's pretty thin, about the thickness of poster board, and easy to bend or curve. Any Home Improvement Store would carry it. It would be where the siding is sold.
    Wayne's Game Room

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    Default Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. DONE!!! With PiCS!!!

    Well, Thanks to some suggestions by Wayne-ooo and a little bit of luck and ingenuity, I got the Gaku counter installed.

    I am not sure what has given me more satisfaction, this little project or my Model "A" playfield replacement. With the model "A" it was pretty straight forward, I simply had to take it apart, order and label the parts and put it back in reverse order. I had only one hiccup with a particular plastic ball shield and that was remedied with some superglue. I was nervous but never had to "think outside the box" to get it done.

    This counter install was a horse of a different color. My Star Wars gaku install was a cake walk. The payout motor had a single exit and a nice opening to put the counter against to count the winning balls. The hammer was also traditional in that I simply had to position the sensor similarly to my other machines.

    No such luck with this OvalOne frame.

    First of all, the payout motor had two lanes, and where the two lanes "merged" the width of the lanes doubled making a single sensor inadequate. So I figured I would put in a bypass to merge two into one. I figured since the payout motor only put alternate balls down each lane, I'd be fine.

    Here are the pics from that.


    IMAG0336.jpg
    This is the disassembled payout chute (unmodified)

    IMAG0337.jpg
    I first ground out the wall between the two lanes using a Dremel tool

    IMAG0338.jpg
    Next I used aluminim flashing (Thanks Wayne-ooo) to construct the "bypass lane into the clear cover. Contact Cement worked like a champ.

    IMAG0339.jpg
    Here is the payout chute modified, the balls from the left track hit the aluminum track and are directed to the right track. I then cut a notch in the side of the chute just below the bypass and installed the sensor again with an aluminum strip attached to the outside of the chute and the payout sensor mounted so it can "peer" into the notch.

    IMAG0340.jpg

    Everything worked great...During all phases, balls went in the right place and the counter was doing its thing...That is, until the first fever round. Remember I said I didn't THINK there would be a problem...Wrong!!! During the fever round, the chamber emptied out, and I decided I would continue playing and once the fever was over, simply refill the tray and let the payout computer catch up. Bad decision. The payout motor paid so constantly that the balls jammed up at the bypass and both lanes backed up tight into the motor assembly. I thought I was going to fry the motor. Quickly unplugged the machine and slowly worked the jam out. Back to the drawing board.


    IMAG0342.jpg
    Looking at the assembly again, there was absolutely no way I would be able to merge two lanes into one and not risk another jam...I had to backout and fix what I broke. Out came the bypass lane, Another aluminum strip to "rebuild" the ground out divider wall and some electrical tape to make it non reflecting so the payout motor wouldn't fixate on the aluminum sheet. However, now the counter is only counting every other ball.

    Since the Gaku doesn't have a 2 for 1 setting, I'm simply going to have to run the counter and then double what my total indicated wins are. The "net win" display is useless, but since the total shots are displayed, I can simply double total won, and subtract total shot, and I'll have an accurate net won. The most I'll be off is either -1 or +1. I can live with that.

    First bullet dodged...The shot sensor has to be easier, right? Hell no... The hammer is located in the middle of the frame and is almost completely surrounded by the feed mechanism. There was a small gap between the feed mechanism and the playfield, but this put the sensor to the extreme inside of the frame and no manner of repositioning would get it to detect balls. Again, thanks to an off comment by Wayne-00, I decided to mount it on the door, but I had to grind some of the plastic in the feed mechanism so I could reposition the sensor towards the middle of the lane. Worked like a champ, except where I eventually mounted it, it was in a portion of plastic that led up to the short ball return. Thus when I undershot the ball, it would fire back and lodge next to the sensor. Some times three balls would pile up there and prevent the shot sensor from working.

    So now I had to break out the aluminum sheeting again and build a "shield" so that any undershot balls that were hanging up would redirect to another part of the short shot return lane.

    IMAG0343.jpg
    Here is the shot sensor with it's redirect shield on. Now undershot balls do not hang up against the sensor.

    So there's the project, finally done. The win count is not what is indicated but is easily determined using simple math. The net pay display is not useful but I can derive the net pay display using math, and the shot sensor is now accurate and does not cause any hung up short balls.

    The Gaku counter gives you a "point" in playing. Since you have to keep refilling balls from the front to the back, the only way you can really determine your success during a play session is with the counter. I'm estatic with results, but was frightened that I had seriously just flushed down 400 bucks from trying to be to clever.

    Now it's all good.
    Last edited by p.opus; 08-18-2013 at 03:38 AM.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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    Kungishi Wayne-Ooo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    My guess would be the problem is that you are merging two lanes into one to close to the payout motor. That was my first design and had a similar problem. So, I merged the balls to one lane further down the line. I merged them together in the plastic piece that covers the back of the machine. So, in other words, the balls leave the payout motor, drop into the payout chute and at the bottom of the payout chute they enter into channel that leads to the front payout tray. I merge them together in the plastic channel, right before they come out into the payout tray. I also designed the "merging them over into one lane" similar to how the top tray is designed, with a curved built-up angled piece.

    Again, without tearing the whole machine apart to show you, I made up another piece to help show how I designed the piece.
    002.jpg
    Wayne's Game Room

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    Default Re: Installing a Gaku Counter on a Fuji Oval Frame. Any suggestions

    I thought about doing that, however, there's two problems with my setup. First, where the two payout chutes actually merge, the chamber goes double wide. Also right there is a cutoff switch which turns off the payout motor if the payout gets too backed up. If I make the modification below that switch, then I have the counter below the payout switch and there's a chance that the balls won't back up to cut off the payout motor like it's supposed to.

    I might try again later, but right now, the gaku is actually more "accurate" counting every other ball because when it was counting all the balls, it would occasionally miss one. So for now I'm okay with doing the math.
    71 Nishijin "A" Bowling, 80's Nishijin Hit Parade , 05 Sankyo Star Wars, 07 Fuji Yamato 1, 09 Fuji Yamato 2
    ----------> ----------> ....And so it goes...

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