Rigged?

[heima]

I apologize if this has been addressed before. I did a quick search and nothing popped up at first look.

I know that it is possible to skew balls both into or away from pockets by setting the brass pins at angles, but are the reach, chance, and fever odds possible to rig?

I just got 5 fevers within one hour, the first 3 within 20 minutes. This on a machine that doesn't reach, chance that often, and rarely fevers.

I have noticed something too. I knew I was going to get the first fever, because the reels spin differently a few times before the fever happens. The reels spin shorter, the overall process in about half the time. About 5 minutes later, a fever.

Also something else that makes me suspicious. Twice I got reaches,chances without the ball going into the start. In fact, I was down to my last two balls, and I watched them pass the start and drain, then a reach,chance began, the numbers did not match and it became a fever. What the heck?!

Anyone else seen this behavior?

[Drunkenclam]

Hard to say but alot of my machines the spin time varies depending on how many banked spins it has. But will extend a spin to get its self in reach position.

[luckydog]

pachinkos will bank up to 4 spins, there should be 4 lights that light up one at a time when you get a ball in center pocket.

so you must have had another spin banked

[p.opus]

For me, spin duration is purely a function of how many spins I have banked. I can have up to 4 spins banked. If a spin starts with more than 2 in the bank, then the spin duration is about half. Spin duration has no effect on whether or not I hit a bonus.

Odd's for reaching a bonus are factory set, but my experience with my Star Wars machine is that the machine goes in cycles. The odd's of a machine hitting a bonus are pretty low with the follow up odds increasing the longer you go between bonuses.

Fever, Reach, Super Reach, Chance...All of them are psychological tricks to make you think you are getting close. As a machine is getting closer to hitting a bonus, you may see clues on the LCD screen in the form of more frequent 'reaches' "super reaches" which have separate extended animations and "chances" which are usually mini games you play with the chance button. They are primarily there to make you think you are getting close, but as often as not, can be red herrrings. I have had stretches where I get multiple reaches, Super Reaches and the like in a row, only to "miss" by one number and end up putting several thousand more balls into the machine before it hits. That being said, I have rarely gotten a bonus "out of the blue". In almost all cases, they come during a time when the reaches are super reaches are coming more frequently.

On my Star Wars machine, there are two possible "fever" modes.

Normal Bonus: This is the bonus I get for matching the "blue" numbers (in my case 2,4,6 or 8). It consists of a 15 round "fever" mode which opens the big door and I pile up balls. After the 15 rounds are up, the machine goes in to 100CR mode which will allow me 100 spins with the "Start Tulip" opening and closing alternately everytime I put a ball through the mini-roulette gate. A Start Tulip gives a spin and pays me 5 balls instead of three. The net result of this is that during this 100CR mode is that the machine pays out slightly above 1:1 average. I usually will end 100CR mode with 0 to 100 balls more than I shot during the entire 100CR period. When 100CR mode is over, the machine returns to normal operation and resets the odds.

Big Bonus: This is the bonus I get for matching the "red" numbers (1,3,5,7,9). It consists of a 15 round "fever" mode. After the 15 rounds are up, instead of 100CR mode, it goes into what I call "maintain" mode. This is the same as 100CR mode, but the start Tulip support lasts indefinitely. As long as I put balls through the mini-roulette gate, the start tulips will open and shut. Unlike 100CR mode, though, I am guaranteed a follow up "fever" mode in a very short period of time. Now if the second fever mode is another Big Bonus, then I just keep continuing in this manner. In Big Bonus mode, it is possible to string together several Big Bonuses together by continuing to match the red numbers. However anytime that my guaranteed follow up "fever" is a Normal Bonus (blue numbers), then of course it goes back to 100CR mode and after that, the machine turns to normal operation and resets the odds.

The "ZF" Star Wars machine (the one I own and by far the most common) is a very stingy machine with awful odds. It starts at 1 in 496 but eventually will drop down to 1 in 49.6

The "ZR1" Star Wars machine has much better initial odds 1 in 259 dropping down to 1 in 25.9. It plays identically to the ZF but the "bonus" mode only lasts 5 rounds instead of 15. This makes for a much lower payout. However many prefer this machine for home use, since you fever much more often and the shorter fever cycle means less tray filling. This machine is fairly rare but at least one member here had one, and he loved it.

There is third one called the "ST", It's odds are the lowest of them all at 1 in 243 dropping down to 1 in 24.3, It has only one bonus mode (15 rounds) but has no big bonus mode, so essentially the unit resets after each bonus mode and you don't have the extended "maintain" mode that guarantees another fever. I have never seen or heard of anyone having an "ST" in the US.

Of the three, I would happily give up my "ZF" cell for a "ZR1". I like the better odds shorter fever round and I prefer the artwork on the ZR1 over the ZF.

The Pachitalk Research center has some brochures outlining the play modes for various machines. If your machine is listed, you might be able to discover the payouts on yours. Also if you tell us what type of machine you have, someone with knowledge of that machine can give you an indication of the odds and play modes of your machine.

The machine manuals can be found on the main pachitalk page on the right hand side, or here: PachiTalk Research Center - Machine Manuals - PachiTalk

[Sederien]

*sighes*

This is a question that comes up all the time, but the answer is always the same:

No, they are not rigged and cannot be rigged.

That having been said, each machine has printed odds clearly marked on the cell itself. You'll see it as 1/399.7 or 1/256, etc. That means that the OVERALL chance for you to win is 1/X where X is whatever the manufacturer setting is.

What trips a lot of people up is how that 1/X is arrived at. Machines can be simple (e.g. every spin is 1/399.7, no exceptions) to complex (e.g. normal mode with 1/999 but a 1/100 chance to move into a mode with 1/125 odds and a chance in that mode to move back to normal, etc...). But overall, the odds remain 1/X.

If you win, the machine then figures out what type of bonus you get (a continuation one where more bonuses are guaranteed or a normal one with a simple chance time after) and pays out accordingly.

It really, truly, 100% is that simple.

[Sederien]

The odd's of a machine hitting a bonus are pretty low with the follow up odds increasing the longer you go between bonuses.

This is not true. Pachinkos have no internal mechanism or programming to ensure better odds after X spins and there is no legal requirement for them to do so.

You may be thinking of (certain) pachislo machines which do have a legal requirement to pay out at a listed percentage depending on the setting. Those machines often have a "heaven mode" wherein they will pay out more after a certain number of spins without a bonus (often well over a 1000 for machines that have less than 1/200 odds).

[heima]

Thanks guys. I would like to think that the banked spins affects the spin duration, but not on my machine. I almost thought it had something to do with holding the pause button on the shooter, but not with that either. I did notice that the tulip under the start stayed open longer after the first fever. I think that helped me get the other four.

On my machine, each fever goes for 15 rounds. Pay-out is 15 balls for each ball into the "Reward" gate. The best I have gotten is 11 balls into the reward gate in a fever round. I guess under ideal conditions, I would win 11(balls in the gate per round)x15(balls payout per ball in the gate)x15(rounds)=2475 balls.

I am a little confused with the odds for pachinko machines. I don't understand the math. Lets take my machine "Docker" for example.
The reels have 0 - 9, D, and J. Thats 12. So the odds of hitting a reach is 1 in 12. The odds of hitting a fever after a reach is 1 in 12. So for each time a ball goes into the start or tulip under the start, the odds of a fever should be 1 in 144, but somehow I get the feeling it doesn't work that way.
I have seen the reach fake-outs and how they become more elaborate, providing second and third chances. I wonder if there is any way to influence them.

If somebody could point me to more information about my machine, it would be appreciated. Its a Toyomaru Docker. Oh shoot, it just hit me, search by the katakana, not romaji. Yep, there is the youtube video! And a whole bunch of links!

[p.opus]

This is not true. Pachinkos have no internal mechanism or programming to ensure better odds after X spins and there is no legal requirement for them to do so.

Thanks for the clarification Sederien

I guess I got tripped up on this statement on the two Star Wars machine brochures in the Pachitalk Manuals section

I don't read Kana, but it appears on these brochures that my machine starts at 1/496.5 and goes to 1/49.

Perhaps if you can clarify, that would be great.

StarWars Probability.jpg Star Wars Probability 2.jpg

[heima]

So in watching the video here: CRドッカー緑1� - YouTube
The odds start out at 1:317.6 and then go to 1:59.5. So what are these odds? A fever for each ball launched? Dunno.

[p.opus]

Ok... I found my answer. Sederien is right

The full explanation can be found here: How to play Pachinko?

It makes no difference how many "symbols" or "numbers" appear on the screen as the odds for hitting any specific number can differ internally. For example, there may be five chances to hit a one, but only one chance to hit a seven. Since the player is unaware of these internal settings, you can't simply judge the odds by what "appears" on the screen. This is the case in pachinko machines as well as slot machines. The symbols that appear are not relative to the chances of hitting that symbol due to the "internal" or "virtual" stops a certain value may have.

The odds of any bonus mode is what is listed on the machine in my case it is 1 in 496.5

Depending on what type of bonus you hit, determines the odds for a follow up bonus. If you get a Kakuhen bonus, the odds for a follow up bonus is 1/10th the original odds. In my case 1 in 49.6. For my machine, a Kakuhen bonus is achieved by matching the red numbers or (1,3,5,7,9). Each machines Kakuhen bonus is unique but the result is the same. Since my Kakuhen bonus also includes start "tulip" support, then it is very difficult for me to lose balls between bonuses. In fact, when the start "tulip" is active, then I actually usually "gain" balls rather than lose them. I can string several Kakuhen Bonuses back to back which is often called a "fever mode".

The other bonus you can get is called a Jitan bonus. (On my machine this is matching 2,4,6,8) This bonus does NOT reduce the odds of a follow up bonus but instead gives you 100 spins with the start tulip support. Again with the start tulip active, it's hard to lose balls, but those 100 spins are spins at ORIGINAL odds, not at the better Kakuhen odds. As a result, on my machine, even with 100 spins my odds of getting a follow up bonus are really low.

You will often see a percentage given on a machine that is sometimes called a "thrust" probability or something to the effect. This is the odds that any "bonus" will be a Kakuhen bonus or a Jitan Bonus. On my machine it is listed at 68%.

So in short, here's how it goes for my machine.

I have a 1 in 496.5 chance of hitting my first bonus. That bonus has a 68% chance of being a Kakuhen bonus. Follow up bonuses after an initial Kakuhen bonus are 1 in 49.6. Any follow up bonus after a Kakuhen bonus has a 68% chance of being another Kakuhen bonus.

At any bonus phase, I have 32% chance that it will be a Jitan bonus. After a Jitan Bonus I still have a 1 and 496.5 chance of a follow up bonus, but I get 100 spins with Start Tulip support which lowers my odds of losing balls during the first 100 spins towards the next bonus.

[Wayne-Ooo]

[Sederien]

Ok... I found my answer. Sederien is right

[snip]

So in short, here's how it goes for my machine.

I have a 1 in 496.5 chance of hitting my first bonus. That bonus has a 68% chance of being a Kakuhen bonus. Follow up bonuses after an initial Kakuhen bonus are 1 in 49.6. Any follow up bonus after a Kakuhen bonus has a 68% chance of being another Kakuhen bonus.

At any bonus phase, I have 32% chance that it will be a Jitan bonus. After a Jitan Bonus I still have a 1 and 496.5 chance of a follow up bonus, but I get 100 spins with Start Tulip support which lowers my odds of losing balls during the first 100 spins towards the next bonus.

That is -exactly- how it works.

Also, as a side note, for anyone who has an Eva machine. I'm really, really, sorry to break this to you, but:

Spoiler

That MISSION MODE isn't actually any easier to win in than the regular spins. It's still 1/X

EDIT:

Also, please ignore everything in the linked article under the heading: "The waiting game"

One of the most popular and well-practiced pachinko strategies is to stay at one single machine for the entire time the parlor is open even if it is not at a high setting. The logic behind this is that although the machine the player is at may be programmed to give the player a loss of 30% over the long-run, the player should keep playing at the machine to minimize his or her losses and, maybe, if if the player is lucky enough, gain a small margin of profit. As a means to demonstrate this point, it has been observed[who?] many times that in the rare instance a particular pachinko machine goes over 1000 spins without any jackpots, it usually then shortly enters into kakuhen mode if someone continues to play it (within the next few hundred spins), which can last for 5 or more jackpots. One common explanation for this phenomenon is that some parlor managers may, albeit illegally, manipulate their machines as people are using them to give them a decent amount of jackpots once they confirm that they have lost a great deal of money just so that no potential future patronage is lost. Of course, many amateur players do not have the time or financial backing to gamble in this fashion, but they may be apt to try their luck if they find a pachinko machine that has gone over 1000 spins without providing any jackpots.

This is wrong. There is no way to remotely trigger jackpots and the few times in which machines go over 1000 just end up being part of the typical random distribution of wins as per statistical variation. I've even seen other articles about pachinko suggest that you should play machines that recently won because "machines pay out in waves." Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG.

Once the machine has exited kakuhen mode, you're back to basic odds. I know of no exceptions to this rule.

The rest of the article is nice and worth the read, though, should people be interested. ^^

[p.opus]

Thanks for the confirmation Sederien.

Now to completely pull the curtain on the wizard so to speak. The additional game modes, (i.e. shoot down tie fighters, shoot down vaders fighter, vader chance (either pick the right card, or time the saber swing to strike the spinning numbers)) are mere window dressing to add variety to the game and give me the impression that I have a level of control of my win. In truth, the machine has already decided once the spin starts, whether it's a winner or not. The additional game modes are nothing but "unearned" spins. If that unearned spin was determined to be a winner, than I will automatically "pick the right card" "defeat vader" or "shoot down the ties". If that unearned spin is a loser, then it doesn't matter when I hit the chance button or how often, I still lose.

[Sederien]

Thanks for the confirmation Sederien.

Now to completely pull the curtain on the wizard so to speak. The additional game modes, (i.e. shoot down tie fighters, shoot down vaders fighter, vader chance (either pick the right card, or time the saber swing to strike the spinning numbers)) are mere window dressing to add variety to the game and give me the impression that I have a level of control of my win. In truth, the machine has already decided once the spin starts, whether it's a winner or not. The additional game modes are nothing but "unearned" spins. If that unearned spin was determined to be a winner, than I will automatically "pick the right card" "defeat vader" or "shoot down the ties". If that unearned spin is a loser, then it doesn't matter when I hit the chance button or how often, I still lose.

For your machine (and the vast majority of others) this is indeed correct.

There are some exceptions with certain machines which are a bit more complicated, but they just end up confusing what is otherwise a very simple process at the base level.

[p.opus]

So in watching the video here: CRドッカー緑1� - YouTube
The odds start out at 1:317.6 and then go to 1:59.5. So what are these odds? A fever for each ball launched? Dunno.

To answer your question here we go. Your machine goes through a ton of hysteronics during reaches and such, (a lot more than my Star Wars) but the net result is pretty simple according to the video. The only thing the video doesn't address is your chances for a Kakuhen or Jitan bonus. If you get any documentation with a % next to it, it's likely your Kukuhen odds.

The 4 Led's under the screen tell you how many spins you have banked. You can't bank more than 4. In my experience, that's when I stop shooting balls and wait until I get under 4 banked spins. In my opinion hitting a start pocket with 4 banked spins is a wasted hit. You get more balls, but no additional spins and quite frankly your goal is to maximize your spins, so let's not waste them.

Your odds of getting a bonus are 1:317.6 If you get a Kakuhen bonus, your odds for a follow up bonus drop to 1:59.5. A Kakuhen bonus on your machine are the boxes with the red stripes, or 1,3,5,7,d,j. The other boxes, (grey stripes) give you a Jiten bonus. Now once you get a bonus, your machine will launch into a ton of videos to determine if it is Kakuhen or Jiten. My machine does too to a much lesser extent. I may initially look like I get a Jiten but after the wheels spin more, it turns to Kakuhen. In reality, it's window dressing. Whatever combination you end up with when the award gate actually opens is the type of bonus you actually won.

According to the video Your average payout during a complete bonus round is 2100 balls.

Your payout scheme is much simpler than mine. All pockets give you 5 balls, and payout gate pockets give you 15.

On most machines, you will get start pocket tulip support after both Jiten and Kakuhen bonuses, but most likely the tulip support for Kakuhen wins is indefinite, where as the Jiten tulip support lasts 100 spins (sometimes seen as 100CR mode).

One last thing about "tulip support". On many moderns, there is a "passthrough" gate that pays no balls, but will activate something called a sub-roulette. On some machines this sub-roulette spin is sometimes displayed on a separate two digit LED display, on mine it's simply an X and O on the playfield. The machine will do a sub-roullete spin and if you match the numbers, or in my case get a land on an O, the start tulip will open for approximately 1/2 second.

Like normal spins, I can bank 4 sub-roulette spins. If a ball just happens to be in the vicinity of the tulip during this time, then I can win a spin by entering the open tulip. On my machine the sub-roulette is a pathetic 15 percent, and going through the passthrough makes it impossible for me to get a "start" with that ball, so I simply don't try during normal mode. You should identify the passthrough on your machine to see if it's worth aiming for the sub-roulette on your machine during normal play

But during post Kukuhen and post Jiten modes, this sub-roulette really comes into play. During this time, hitting the passthrough gate doesn't merely start a sub-roulette, but actually starts the tulip opening and closing constantly at 1/2 second intervals for the entirety of the spin. This changes the playfield dynamic big time. You will want to learn how to direct the balls and bank as many sub-roulette during this time so you can hit those tulips often.

Hope this clears things up. Consider this horse dead and beaten...

[heima]

Thank you very much for all of those explanations, Opus. I think I understand it now. The math is too much for my brain, so I will just sit and watch the pretty lights and funny videos. Kind of sneaky with those internal numbers on the reels. And regarding the sub-roulette, there are two gates that flash an 8 above the screen, and they too build up invisible spins. These spins time out and slowly disappear, regardless if balls are in play. The start pocket, the tulip, and three of the pockets payout 5 balls, but the pocket on the far right pays out 15 balls.

Ya know, even now, after I have a better understanding of the odds, I don't think it affects my game play. Of course, if I was gambling, that would be different.

Its a shame that the mini-games, like what you have for your Star Wars, doesn't actually affect the outcome. I guess if it did, then these wouldn't be gambling machines. It would be nice if the "prize" for being successful in a mini-game was something that altered game play, but without changing odds. Like ball firing speed, lights illuminated, music played, or some type of video. And maybe with the more modern machines, this does happen.

Again, thanks for typing all of that up. I appreciate you trying to set me straight.

[Sederien]

Its a shame that the mini-games, like what you have for your Star Wars, doesn't actually affect the outcome. I guess if it did, then these wouldn't be gambling machines. It would be nice if the "prize" for being successful in a mini-game was something that altered game play, but without changing odds. Like ball firing speed, lights illuminated, music played, or some type of video. And maybe with the more modern machines, this does happen.

Yes, the outcome of any given spin is predetermined the moment the ball passes through the start gate sensor.

Still, I hit the button when it tells me to every single time. Primarily because the outcome CAN signify your chances of winning on that particular spin before the final result is shown. (e.g. If it's a blue something or other, you can typically write-off that reach. If it's a red something, you might be looking at a 10-20% chance on that spin depending on the machine, etc.) Again, pushing the button may not chance the outcome of the spin, but.. well...

[Drunkenclam]

Once the machine has exited kakuhen mode, you're back to basic odds. I know of no exceptions to this rule.

The rest of the article is nice and worth the read, though, should people be interested. ^^

True, When i was playing last week. the second spin after exiting kakuhen mode was an Ootari, and I went straight back in again, Unfortuataly as it had exited kakuhen, The story chapter theme of each reach/chance had reset back to the beginning, Will I ever get passed chapter 4

[takethecastle57]

[p.opus]

While I absolutely love all the bells, whistles, and effects on a modern machine, I really do regret that pachinko has become nothing more than a glorified video slot machine. The "reaches" "mini games" animations and such make it tons more entertaining than video slots, but it's still video slots at the core.

I was introduced to pachinko when I was a boy. My first machine was a Nishijin Model B. The only thing affecting odds on that machine was pin placement. Pins could be easily bent to either produce or prevent a set payout amount (usually 15 balls). With a manual plunger, I could try to aim my shots in the area I think the ball will most likely hit a pocket. Not an exact science to be sure, but I still had some control of the game.

I have a 71 Nishijin Model A that I really enjoy for that very reason. There is no fever mode, there are simply shot combos that can yield anywhere from 1 to 5 additional payouts in quick order due to the opening and closing of tulips elsewhere on the board. It consists of two lights (one I added my self) and a bell. Pretty boring, but the gameplay is pure.

I also have an All 11 Hanemono Early modern. The auto shooting knob takes away a lot of the tactile feel of varying plunger strength. While you still have the ability to control ball launch strength, it's less apparant. But being an Hanemono, it still relies entirely on pin placement and shot placement and timing. There is no preset odds that determine when my next fever will be. I simply have to launch a ball into the center hole of the center feature when the side wings are open. The lack of "tulips" and the ALL 11 jackpots overall make this machine tighter than my Model A (that is until I hit a fever). However, with this machine I don't sense that it has an agenda. The lack of tulips and lower payout simply is there to counter balance the existence of fever rounds.

My Star Wars, IMHO, has a very set agenda. It is to take my balls as rapidly as possible. I am lucky to get 1 start pocket for every 10 balls, and that start pocket will only yield 3 balls back. When this machine doesn't fever, I win roughly 30% - 35% of my balls back. There is absolutely no way to get up on this machine without hitting a bonus. And that, is set by the manufacturer. In the last 2 days, I have shot over 7000 balls into the machine, which equates to anywhere between 500 and 700 spins with no fever in sight. This borders on futility.

When I start playing my vintage or hanemono, I expect to win. Maybe not a lot, but I expect to come away with more than I put into it. If I do "lose" it's only because of the difference I would get from the exchange rate of ball rental to ball return.

However when I play my Star Wars, I fully expect to lose. When I get my CR Yamato 1, my experience may change. The CR Yamato 1 has much better initial odds. Perhaps the increased payout probability will lessen the futility I get when I play my Star Wars. One thing is for sure. My CR Yamato 1 will probably end up being my "go to" modern to play. I'll keep the Star Wars primarily due to it's theme, but as far as fun factor goes, It's probably going to end up being my least favorite machine.