Surge Protector "Discussion"

[luckydog]

I lived in florida for 34 years and most of my electronis are on cheap power strips

we do get some good lightning storms, but, i have never had anything fry

I don't worry about it

[daverob]

If you're saying all surge protectors are the same you might find this article helpful:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_compa...d_performance/

I don't think anyone is saying that all surge protectors are the same. There are obviously different levels of performance and price. Some of those levels of performance are a waste of money at any price, and some of them are very good at what they do. The argument here is that you either need no surge protection at all, or where one is necessary a whole house system is much better in both performance and price.

And the NEMA Surge protection institute:
http://www.nemasurge.com/

From the first paragraph on that website... 'Our mission is to heighten awareness of the benefits of surge protection', hardly an unbiased source.

I don't believe the problems associated with surges and the equipment used to control them are junk science.

Neither do I, but the marketing material produced by the manufacturers of domestic plug in surge protection equipment is often full of claims that are difficult to prove, and a lot of scaremongering with no scientific justification.

For example...

A common unfiltered switch will not cause over-voltage spikes but distort (modify) the AC wave form as demonstrated in my experiment which anyone can do,

So what is your experiment intended to prove, apart from 'switch contacts can arc'. This is a very well known electrical phenomenon, that has been well understood for over 100 years. If electronic equipment wasn't designed to handle this, it would fail the first time you turn it on or off.

Your experiment is not very good at proving your point that this arcing is bad and can cause damage. In fact the results could be used to show the opposite case to be true, as the next time you flick the switch, the bulb still lights.

and modified wave forms can damage some electronic equipment:
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Av.../MQP_D_1_2.pdf

"These devices are able to run more sensitive devices that a modified
sine wave may cause damage to such as: laser printers, laptop computers, power tools, digital clocks and
medical equipment."

Laser printers could possibly have problems, depending on the circuit used to control the temperature of the fuser unit. I'd expect modern 'eco-friendly' machines to be ok, as the low standby power consumption and fast heat up times require a closed loop control system on the heating element, but older ones where the fuser is run direct from the AC supply or from an open loop PWM controller may not operate correctly.

Laptop computers will be fine, as they are usually run from an external power brick with a switch mode converter in them. Most of these power bricks will run off anything from around 90v to 260v AC or DC. I used to have a very old Toshiba laptop (mono screen, 286 processor) with an internal power supply rather than an external brick. The 12v car adaptor was a DC-DC converter that gave a 128v DC output to feed to the laptop. I've used this converter with several other laptops since then, and never had any problems.

Power tools are very likely to have problems. Motors are highly inductive loads, and will run at low efficiency and overheat if not designed to run from a non-sinewave source.

Digital clocks will run fine, and are unlikely to be damaged. But older ones won't keep good time, as they are often synchronised to the mains frequency and any free running DC to AC converter will not provide an accurate enough reference frequency. You'll have the same issues with a pure sine converter, unless it is accurately crystal controlled. Modern digital clocks have their own internal reference (so they can be used in countries with 50Hz or 60Hz supplies), and should be fine on any converter.

Medical equipment is just a standard disclaimer. Nothing electronic seems to ever be suitable for use with medical equipment, unless it just so happens to be medical equipment.

All of these cases are specific issues with continuous use with power supplies from a modified sine wave converter. Short duration noise or switching spikes will not be an issue with any of this equipment.

[Steve Cebu]

Well at the moment I am running Belkin surge protectors that I bought at Home Depot for about $8 for a pair of them.
They work as far as I can tell and I shut off the power strip when not in use. During an electrical storm I unplug everything.
I also have decent homeowners insurance.

[SteveFury]

Thank you Daverob.

Why would you think the Surge Protection Institute is biased?
I guess in a way it is, similar to the Institute of Transportation is biased toward travel, or the Institute of Cardiology is biased about the heart. Biased yes but that doesn't mean the information they provide is false.

I don't think anyone is saying that all surge protectors are the same. There are obviously different levels of performance and price.

Reread post #16 and you'll find nothing at all mentioned about different levels of performance. Only hype, junk science and there is absolutely nothing said about quality filters employed in some better protectors.

Neither do I, but the marketing material produced by the manufacturers of domestic plug in surge protection equipment is often full of claims that are difficult to prove, and a lot of scaremongering with no scientific justification.

For example...

You say I'm a scaremonger, yet I said way back in post #2:
"I don't know if anyone had problems with plugging a unit directly in a strip, probably not but I wouldn't do that with mine."
I'm not sure how scary probably not is.

I'll see if I have a few minutes in the next few days to connect my scope to a bulb, let the switch arc and post the before/during and after waveform. I'll also post it during the normal transition of going on/off. I will be very surprised if it retains any resemblance to a sine and the potential will likely effect the full 120v. I'll also test the cheap power strip switch vs a good quality switch.

The question is whether or not the horrible wave distortion cause problems.
If you reread my post #2 you'll find my response to that question is "Probably not". Does "Probably not" sound like "can... or will"?

So what is your experiment intended to prove, apart from 'switch contacts can arc'. This is a very well known electrical phenomenon, that has been well understood for over 100 years. If electronic equipment wasn't designed to handle this, it would fail the first time you turn it on or off. ...(Skip)... Your experiment is not very good at proving your point that this arcing is bad and can cause damage.

Now you're just plain misquoting me. I've never said switch arcing can cause damage. I've been very careful not to make that claim. I've only said that I choose not to switch my things that way.

You might wonder why should I bother if manufacturers incorporate their own filters.
It's the same reason (usual) people don't bring their automobile engine's RPM to red line, even though it was designed to handle it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to avoid horribly distorted wave forms from entering electronic equipment.

[new in town]

My 2 Cents.

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/lightning.htm

Welcome to PachiTalk ! ! !

[westom]

If you're saying all surge protectors are the same you might find this article helpful: ...
Clearly they have different features and levels of protection.

Different devices exist that just happen to use the same name - surge protector. Myths also rename noise as a surge. Games of word association cause confusion. Therefore we are discussing something irrelevant to the OP. He has only asked about using a switch.

Your first citation defines different types of devices used to design surge protectors. It says nothing about each type of surge. It gives no numbers. And it does nothing for the OP's question.

"These devices are able to run more sensitive devices that a modified sine wave may cause damage to such as: laser printers, laptop computers, power tools, digital clocks and medical equipment."

These myths sell scams. First, it makes claims without numbers. A first indication of subjective (also called junk science) reasoning. Second, it makes claims that are based in intentional lies.

For example, this 120 volt UPS, described as a sine wave output, is 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Is that a sine wave output? Of course. Those square waves and spike are nothing more than a sum of sine waves. An example of how subjective claims and word association can hype what is 'dirtiest' electricity as 'better'. "Sine wave output" defined without numbers is a first indication of a scam.

That 200 volt square wave is good for all electronics. Because 'sensitive electronics' routinely convert dirtiest 'modified sine waves' into cleanest DC voltages. 'Sensitive electronics' are more robust. What is most at risk by modified sine waves? Small electric motors and power strip protectors. daverob also discusses this.

Why is a UPS output so 'dirty'? Why not use a 'Bubba oscillator'? That sine wave solution creates too much heat. Wastes too much battery power. Increases costs. And does not solve anything.

None of this is relevant to the OP's switch. To the OP, a switch anywhere in the power circuit (inside the machine, on a power strip, in the wall) does same. If the switch on a power strip is harmful, then a switch inside his machine is also harmful. That switch does same anywhere in a power circuit.

One item must always be on the OP's power strip. A circuit breaker. A power strip without a circuit breaker (or fuse inside a plug) is a human safety threat.

'Dirty' power or transient protection is irrelevant to the OP's question. If a transient (surge) problem must be solved, that completely different, superior, and less expensive solution is located elsewhere. Daisy chaining power strips is a human safety violation.

Scams get promoted by junk science reasoning. A first indication of junk science: no numbers. Every valid solution is quantified with numbers. A power switch does not create destructive transients. The numbers. It might create noise.

If a switch creates noise, a homeowner does not buy a protector. One citations discusses the solution: a snubber. If I remember, that snubber solution is provided with numbers.

[daverob]

Why would you think the Surge Protection Institute is biased?
I guess in a way it is, similar to the Institute of Transportation is biased toward travel, or the Institute of Cardiology is biased about the heart. Biased yes but that doesn't mean the information they provide is false.

Last night I only read as far as the paragraph I quoted. They are a manufacturers association, who clearly state that they are there to promote 'the benefits of surge protection'. This sets the alarm bells ringing in my mind, and while I wouldn't expect to find anything on that site that was factually inaccurate, I would be very surprised if I found both sides of the argument presented with equal prominence on that site. In the interests of fairness, I took another look at the site this morning, and everything I saw was technically accurate, but I didn't find any place on the site where they said that surge protection wasn't necessary in certain situations, and the cost of installing surge protection may be significantly higher than the benefits it gives.

It's the same as if you went to McDonalds website, you'd find a lot of truthful information about Big Macs, but you wouldn't find anything saying that if you're just simply hungry a couple of slices of toast will be just as good.

Reread post #16 and you'll find nothing at all mentioned about different levels of performance. Only hype, junk science and there is absolutely nothing said about quality filters employed in some better protectors.

Ok, the posts have been renumbered since this topic was split, and I don't think you are referring to luckydog's 'don't worry, be happy' (very good advice there!).

Westom is known on many internet forums, he seems to pop up whenever surge protection is mentioned, and very rarely posts on any other topic. He does tend to come across as ranting on some occasions, but I do agree with his point of view.

Google him and find out for yourself, I particularly recommend some of the flame wars on Hi-fi and home cinema websites, where he is regularly accused of being a troll by people who believe that a 3 foot Monster HDMI cable will improve the picture from their DVD player on their 1080p TV.

In post #15 he is taking exception to your experiment. The way I read it (please correct me if I have misunderstood) is that he originally stated that it doesn't matter where power is switched, you are going to get some switching noise, which is a perfectly accurate statement. You quoted this, disagreed with it, and then proposed an experiment to prove that switches arc and produce switching noise.

Westom then questioned your proposed experiment, as it doesn't seem to have a purpose apart from a simple 'hey look this is bad'. This is very similar to the 'junk science' quoted by manufacturers, who use factual information to show you what a really bad lightning surge could do, but then don't go on to tell you that their protector wouldn't be capable of stopping something this bad, and that smaller surges wouldn't cause any damage even if you didn't have any protection.

You say I'm a scaremonger, yet I said way back in post #2:
"I don't know if anyone had problems with plugging a unit directly in a strip, probably not but I wouldn't do that with mine."
I'm not sure how scary probably not is.

But you are advocating the use of surge protection and line filtering to someone who originally asked if there's any difference between using the internal power switch over the one on a socket strip. My reading of your first post doesn't seem to contain an answer to this question, but does use language such as 'to make matters worse' in it's recommendation for using multiple surge protectors. It might not have been your intent, but to me that comes across as scaremongering. For all you know the original poster (in the now split thread) lives in an area where storms are extremely rare, and all power cables are underground, where a single surge protector is unnecessary and a second surge protector plugged into the first one is doubly unnecessary!

I'll see if I have a few minutes in the next few days to connect my scope to a bulb, let the switch arc and post the before/during and after waveform. I'll also post it during the normal transition of going on/off.

I was going to suggest you try this, I'd even got as far as typing it into my reply, before I thought that I don't know anything about your electrical experience and an experiment like this could be very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, so I deleted that paragraph before posting. If you do try this, please make sure the scope power is isolated and that the probe isn't grounded, as you run the risk of allowing the magic smoke to escape if you make measurements on line voltage with a grounded scope. (I'm sure you already know this, but this is intended for other people reading this thread who might want to give this a try).

My prediction is that with the light bulbs being a purely resistive load, that there will be no appreciable difference between the results from a direct connection and a cheap surge protector with no line filtering. Adding a line-filter into the experiment will attenuate the switching noise somewhat, but it won't remove it and you'll still get a significantly distorted output. But at no point will you get any 'spikes' that are significantly above the peak line voltage. Swapping the bulbs for a more inductive load may produce some switching spikes, but the equipment with the inductive load will be designed to cope with these as they happen every time it is turned off.

Now you're just plain misquoting me. I've never said switch arcing can cause damage. I've been very careful not to make that claim. I've only said that I choose not to switch my things that way.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent, but I still don't understand why you're trying to protect against switch arcing if you don't think it will cause damage. To go with the automotive analogy, it's like installing brooms on the front of your car to protect against punctures. While technically it does reduce the risk, I think most people would think that it is clearly a step too far.

I've suffered from many punctures (including a high speed blowout on a front wheel at about 70mph, which was a little scary), but I still run on regular tyres (or tires!) with no additional protection. I've never personally had any electrical equipment fail that was attributable to a power surge or lightning strike, and have worked in a busy repair shop where I've only ever seen one item that was genuinely damaged by a lightning strike where the house it came from suffered significantly more structural damage and no other electrical items in the house had failed. So why should I pay for something that may (or may not) protect me from a less significant danger than a puncture on my car.

As you might have guessed by now, this is a topic that tends to send me off on a rant* (a well structured and factual rant, but still a rant) and from your initial post, I had assumed that you were in the 'Look at all these potential dangers to your expensive equipment, you should go out right now and buy a good quality surge protector' camp and had read all your following posts with that assumption. I would now classify your argument more towards the 'it's good to have the extra reassurance that surge protectors and line filters give'.

I am still firmly in the camp of 'If you are in an area with a significant surge risk, then invest in a proper solution (ie whole house protection), if not then plug in surge protectors are unlikely to give much more protection than is already built in to your equipment'. I don't think either of us are going to change our opinions of this, so perhaps it is best to agree to disagree and let this thread wind itself down.




*One of the reasons I get so evangelical about this subject is that when I was about 10, my first home computer died while under warranty. The bloke in the shop told my dad that it was probably a mains spike that killed it. This was the era before surge protectors were common and cheap, but my dad went out and bought one for a significant fraction of the price of the home computer on the sales blokes recommendation.

But the worst bit was that he then told me that I couldn't use the repaired computer until an electrician had installed a dedicated circuit for the computer to ensure that spikes generated by equipment on other household circuits don't damage the computer. Now while I was still young and I didn't have the knowledge I do now, and had a basic knowledge how electricity works and knew that this was an unnecessary step, my dad didn't understand any of this, and took the sales blokes 'spike' explanation as a gospel truth, so I had no chance of convincing my dad otherwise and was without a computer for several weeks.

As a point of reference, I had repaired my first television set two years earlier and was quite comfortable inside domestic equipment at this point, but my dad was more scared of me burning myself with the soldering iron and only let me use it with supervision (something that he clearly understood the dangers of!), and didn't seem to worry about me electrocuting myself. A couple of years later when I was repairing these same home computers for all the other kids in the school (good pocket money earner as they were very unreliable and paid for some very nice workshop equipment for me!), I understood the failure mechanisms inherent in this design and vowed to fight against the 'junk science' that deprived me of my home computer for what seemed like forever at the time.

[Drunkenclam]

This is getting pretty intense. But is the point now protecting the machines from its own on/off switch or from surges in the line. Or types of surge protector from cheap to expensive.
About 10years ago I lost the motherboard on my pc to some unknown voltage. But this didn't come through the mains supply and through the transformer. But cooked the cable modem and shot power through the network cable straight on to the motherboard.
What caused the modem to fail, either internal fault or some kind of surge, Who knows. The thing is the pc still worked just lost its built in network card due to charred componets. If it was a mains spike (we did have a power outage that day) the computer basically survied. using a standard power strip. But was let down by an outside component.

[Steve Cebu]

This is getting pretty intense. But is the point now protecting the machines from its own on/off switch or from surges in the line. Or types of surge protector from cheap to expensive.
About 10years ago I lost the motherboard on my pc to some unknown voltage. But this didn't come through the mains supply and through the transformer. But cooked the cable modem and shot power through the network cable straight on to the motherboard.
What caused the modem to fail, either internal fault or some kind of surge, Who knows. The thing is the pc still worked just lost its built in network card due to charred componets. If it was a mains spike (we did have a power outage that day) the computer basically survied. using a standard power strip. But was let down by an outside component.

Basically that's what happened to me only I was living in the Philippines at the time and my laptop was unplugged from the wall and only the cable modem was plugged in. The Ethernet card was fried and there was a lightning storm at the time. Oh and yes the cable modem was also unplugged.
I'm just assuming that the lightning fried it, since nothing else was plugged it.
It was cooked and still is today. But the rest of the laptop still works fine.

[westom]

What caused the modem to fail, either internal fault or some kind of surge, Who knows. The thing is the pc still worked just lost its built in network card due to charred componets.

Add some other known facts. To be damaged, a current must be incoming on one conductor. And outgoing on some other. You know a network card and modem were damaged. So, what was the path from a surge, through network card, through modem, to earth ground?

Well, a cable is earthed where it enters the building. A surge cannot be incoming on that path. But that can be the outgoing path.

A computer connected to a power strip. An incoming surge on AC mains is connected from the hot (black) wire to the safety ground wire. Now that surge is connected directly to the motherboard ground. Out via the network card. Destructively through the modem. Then to earth via the cable. If your damage happened that way, then we have both seen what happens when a protector earths a surge destructively via adjacent electronics.

To have damage that caused charring means significant energy. That path describes a current that might be that large. Again, to say more requires details including what specific parts were visually damaged.

All power supplies already contain superior protection. A power strip can bypass that protection.

To say more requires details. We would fix electronics by literally replacing semiconductors. Following the surge path to find why it was permitted inside and how it found earth ground. To then eliminate a defect that permitted that damage.

A surge entering on AC mains is incoming to every appliance. But only some are damaged? Only some also have the outgoing path. A surge does not damage an appliance and stop. First that electric current is everywhere and simultaneous on the path to earth. Avoid future damage by identifying both incoming and outgoing electric paths.

[owennewton]

I had a surge on an old PC that was strong enough to crack the CPU and blow 3 other IC's apart on the mother board as well as pop a handful of the caps. The cd rom drive had dents in the case where caps had popped and every component It looked like someone had taken a suicide cord (lamp cord with a plug on one end and bare wire on the other) and shorted it across terminals on the motherboard. As it was still under warranty I had a Tech come look at it. the tech said that it looked as if it had taken a 1500 volt surge from the mains but as nothing else in the house was damaged he (as did I) was leaning to a failure in the power supply letting 120 through the regulated side to the motherboard however briefly before it bricked itself leaving enough time to make all the cool bits explode. Bottom line here is it was plugged into a surge protector that made no change in the outcome as the fault was after the device. The breaker in the surge protector did it's job and tripped protecting the wiring in the house and preventing the main breaker in the house circuit from tripping.

When my Toshiba dvd player faild the power strip popped it's breaker preventing a fire, I know this as when I saw it was tripped I turned it back on and the dvd player burst into flames before the breaker tripped again, thus stopping the short and the fire (mostly) went out, it would have been fine at that point but I went into freak out mode and in one fast motion unhooked all cables from it and flung the smoldering heap out into the yard.

as for "daisy chaining" power strips... It can be not safe if you have too much load but for what I am doing where I only have a single 15 amp outlet and I have 15 cords and wall warts going to equipment on my computer it was something I had to do. I have a power strip (not a suppressor) with a breaker switch and I have 3 strips with surge protection plugged into it so that I am able to use all my equipment together. I am never coming anywhere near the limit for the power usage on the circuit (being the main worry for daisy chaining) and if I did have a failure of a component the fuse, fused link, breaker on the power strip or the main breaker as a worst case would trip.

I use power strips and surge protectors to have enough outlets for this electronic lifestyle, for the convenient ability to switch things off and for the protection that they provide in case something plugged into them fails. If they filter the power coming in somewhat or smooth out a spike, that is cool but I don't believe them to be this save all fix all.

as for the cost comments... Yes, the $4 and the $20 may provide the same breaker but there will be build quality to consider. the $4 one will have a case made of cheaper plastic that may fail if exposed to sunlight (I have seen them start to rot and crumble) and the metal strips that it uses for power buses will be thinner where as (not always but most of the time) the more expensive one will be rated the same but have a stronger case, the components inside will be a little better quality giving it a longer life with things being plugged and unplugged into it before it fails.

From the 250 or so strips I have seen and the 20 or so I have taken apart (remember, I was the electronics guy at a pawn shop for 7 years)I will agree that some $20 ones are the same if not better than the $80 ones but I will call you a lair to your face if you say there is nothing different in quality from a $4 strip and a $50 one

[daverob]

as for "daisy chaining" power strips... It can be not safe if you have too much load [...] I am never coming anywhere near the limit for the power usage on the circuit (being the main worry for daisy chaining) and if I did have a failure of a component the fuse, fused link, breaker on the power strip or the main breaker as a worst case would trip.

This is the most common misunderstanding about daisychaining power strips. Most people think that as long as you are not overloading them everything will be fine, and even if you do overload them, the fuse or breaker will protect you. While this may be true for some fault conditions, there are fault conditions that will cause this set-up to be significantly more dangerous than single standalone power strips.


The technical reason for this is each time you plug another power strip in a daisy chain fashion, you are increasing both the line impedance and the earth loop impedance (essentially these are a measure of the resistance of the cables between the supply socket and the load, longer cable or more connections = more resistance). Line impedance is not a big deal, it will just cause a bit of voltage drop at the far end of the chain, but this is unlikely to cause any issues as most equipment is fairly tolerant of line voltage changes.

An increase in the earth loop impedance is a lot more critical. We depend on good earth connections to protect us in case a live component shorts out to earth, if this happens all the current should be diverted down the earth wire rather than through our bodies. The earth loop impedance is a measure of how good this connection is. The smaller the impedance, the more current can flow to earth.

Ideally if we have a live-earth short, we want as big a fault current as possible which will blow the fuse or trip the breaker as quickly as possible. If you increase the earth loop impedance by daisy chaining power strips the fault current may not be enough to blow the fuse/breaker, and anyone touching the case of the faulty equipment is in for a big shock!

A single power strip will be designed with cables of a suitable size/impedance for the fuse/breaker fitted, for a strip with a longer cable (and the same specification fuse/breaker) the cable will need to be thicker to keep the impedance down to the right level for the fuse/breaker to operate safely. If you daisy chain extension leads or socket strips, you are getting a longer length of a smaller size cable and the impedance may be too high for the fuse/breaker to operate at a safe level.


So in short, if you don't want a significantly higher risk of getting an electric shock, then don't daisy-chain power strips or extension leads.

[SteveFury]

If you have 3 power strips in which each employs 3 ft cords with 12 or 14 gauge wire daisy chained together it is essentially a 9 foot extension cord. If resistance and impedence is an issue over a length of 9 feet then how does a single extension constructed of the same gauge wire but 30 feet long get UL listing? It's the same exact conductors but over 3x longer.

Why is the exact same household breaker fitted regardless of length? For example a 15 amp breaker will be employed for 14 gauge wire regardless if the run is 2 feet or 20.

[takethecastle57]

O.K. I have been fixing electronics since 1967 and have seen , since the introduction of Solid State components I.E. Transistors , Intergrated Circuits , Surface Mount Components a dramatic "Burn-Out " with devices using these modern marvels .

Plain and simple . How much do you like your Pachi's , Big Screen T.V. , Ect ??

If so get the best Battery Back-up that you can afford because of the current monitors built in will prevent Under and Over Voltage to devices plugged into it . All power comming from a wall outlet is known as " Dirty Power " cause it does fluctuate and sometimes goes out .

Next is a Computer Grade Surge Protector Strip because lower grade cheap power strips will not protect our cherished Pachi's .

The Choice is up to you ,the individual on how you take care of your Pachi's .

[takethecastle57]

P.S. Please don't Overload your wall outlets the amperes that each Pachi's uses is known to us and hopefully your House Wiring and Circuit Breakers are good to go too . I run 4 Pachi's off of one outlet with a Battery Back up power supply and a Computer Grade Surge Protector and haven't had a problem with them or wiring for the last 5+ years

[SteveFury]

Daverob, a coax cable is more than its grounding sheath. There's a center conductor which carries the signal.

If lightning strikes a junction box or pole mounted amplifier sending thousands of volts through the center conductor, what will save the modem on the other end? If this should happen why wouldn't the path be in through the cable's center conductor, flow through components and out the easiest ground possible whether it's back out the grounded cable sheath or by way of the grounded power supply?

[takethecastle57]

The Electrical Grounding of household circuits depends on how old the building that your Pachi's are in because the building codes depending where you are located specify a solid earth ground in electrical circuits .

If you can find out if the electrical wiring is grounded to a good earth ground great otherwise you might have to hire a licenced Electrictian to make sure your building is safe .

[takethecastle57]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320802714670...84.m1438.l2649

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/8-OUTLET-POWE...C!Q~~60_14.JPG

[takethecastle57]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/8-OUTLET-POWE...HC!Q~~60_3.JPG

[daverob]

If you have 3 power strips in which each employs 3 ft cords with 12 or 14 gauge wire daisy chained together it is essentially a 9 foot extension cord. If resistance and impedence is an issue over a length of 9 feet then how does a single extension constructed of the same gauge wire but 30 feet long get UL listing? It's the same exact conductors but over 3x longer.

I don't know the electrical codes for the USA, but over here in the UK there is specific guidance in the IEE regulations with regard to extension leads. If your extension lead is up to 12 metres long you can use 1.25mm² cable, up to 15 metres needs to be a minimum of 1.5mm² cable and 2.5mm² cable for up to 25 metres. Daisy chaining leads is strongly discouraged by the regulations, but if it is absolutely necessary then the cables must be the correct size for the length of the complete chain, derated to 90% for each connection, and limited to a maximum of three leads in the chain.

Your example may comply with this guidance (I don't have the time to look up the conversions from imperial to metric), but the electrical safety will still be reduced, and do you seriously expect the average consumer to check the lengths and wire gauge of each of their extensions leads, apply the appropriate derating factor and calculate whether there is an adequate safety margin. So my original advice of do not daisy-chain extension leads still stands.

Why is the exact same household breaker fitted regardless of length? For example a 15 amp breaker will be employed for 14 gauge wire regardless if the run is 2 feet or 20.

Again, not knowing the relevant electrical codes for your locale, but I'm sure there'll be an upper limit to this length based on the overall loop impedance. This length limit will be shorter for 16 gauge wire (as the impedance of smaller wire is higher), and/or a 20 amp breaker (as the fault current required to trip the breaker will be higher) to ensure that the disconnection times are kept to a safe level.

Plain and simple . How much do you like your Pachi's , Big Screen T.V. , Ect ?? [...] The Choice is up to you ,the individual on how you take care of your Pachi's .

I like your style, if you can't get a sale with technical facts, try emotional blackmail. *


I guess that means I don't love my pachis, because I live in an area where lightning storms are thankfully rare, and all my incoming services (power, telephone, CATV etc) are underground, and I don't see the point in spending extra money (that could be spent on more pachis!) on protecting against a non-existent threat.

If by some freak occurrence, one of my pachi's is on the receiving end of a surge, I will hope and pray that the physically large (about the size of my fist) wound transformer that is converting the line voltage to 24 volts for my beloved pachi will be up to the task of filtering out any noise and transients better than a tiny (the size of my thumbnail) 'line conditioning' filter in a surge suppressor strip (I'm guessing that since size is everything when it comes to inductors and filtering that there's a good chance that it will).

I'm also hoping that the in-built semiconductor voltage clamp that is present in every electronic pachinko that I've ever seen, will do it's duty and short out any incoming voltage spikes and perhaps even blow the fuse if the surge voltages get too high for it to safely cope with (as it's designed to do).

If the worst happens and the magnitude of the surge is so high that nothing short of a gas discharge tube would have been enough to save my precious pachinko, I will cry at my short sightedness that I didn't have the foresight to fit a suitable surge protecting device where the electrical supply enters my home and connect it to a suitably large low impedance earth connection, where it might actually have made some difference. I'll then wipe my tears of desperation away for just long enough to replace the bridge rectifiers and switch mode regulator IC's in the pachinko's power supply for a total cost of about $10, and then go on playing my beloved machine as if nothing happened.

If lightning strikes a junction box or pole mounted amplifier sending thousands of volts through the center conductor, what will save the modem on the other end?

Nothing. With a direct strike to something electrically connected, all bets are off, it will fry. It will also fry if fed through a power strip surge supressor, as the electronics in a modem/ethernet card etc will only be capable of handling small signal voltages at very small currents, and the let through voltage of a surge suppressor will still be too high for it.

You've got to realise that a direct lightning strike is a very powerful thing, it can cause concrete buildings to explode due to the currents induced into the reinforcing steelwork. It's millions of volts, and has travelled a very long distance to reach earth. Do you honestly believe that it's going to turn round and go back the way it came when it encounters a gas discharge tube the size of baked bean with a maximum voltage rating of 6000v.

If you are worried about protecting your equipment from lightning strikes and induced surges, then fit a suitable protection device where the services enter the building and ensure that they are connected to an adequate ground path. Even that might not protect you against a direct strike, but it will do a much better job than any plug in surge suppressor.




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