Surge Protector "Discussion"

[SteveFury]

Personally I'd have the pachislo plugged into a good surge protector, the surge protector plugged into a power strip and the power strip plugged into the wall (In that order), even if the power strip has an internal surge protector. If you have a surge protected power strip, the surge protection in about 98% of them are provided by a simple Gas Discharge Tube (GDT) or clamping circuit which will short the strip during a big spike... which isn't much to begin with.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4742952_wh...g-circuit.html
http://www.circuitsfinder.com/basic/..._GDT__903.html

To make matters worse the switch on the strip is almost always situated after the protector so any spiked waveforms caused by arcing within the swich will surely be sent into the pachislo. Any good quality surge protector plugged into the strip should smooth those spikes.

I don't know if anyone had problems with plugging a unit directly in a strip, probably not but I wouldn't do that with mine. Also, if you use a strip with surge protection and outside spikes do make it through, it should be taken care of by the 2nd protector.
A lightning surge would surely fuse the circuit in the strip, and the 2nd protector should prove to be a good buffer to your machine.

[emmadog]

Sounds like some good advice from Steve. I remember reading somewhere how the cheap surge protectors at box stores, wal mart, etc., stand a good chance of not protecting your equipment. When I was down south where thunderstorm were common, I used a heavy duty protector designed for sensitive equipment. I had my arrangeballs and pinballs plugged into it although it's pretty hard to hurt an EM pin. More of a convenience issue. On more than one occasion I'd come home to see that it had tripped and would have to press the reset button, so I know it prevented and likely saved my machines from damage.
I think LT and some other members here use a power strip that has individual switches for each plug in or something like that. Don't know if it's a protector as well, maybe they'll read this and chime in.

[owennewton]

Personally I'd have the pachislo plugged into a good surge protector, the surge protector plugged into a power strip and the power strip plugged into the wall (In that order), even if the power strip has an internal surge protector. If you have a surge protected power strip, the surge protection in about 98% of them are provided by a simple Gas Discharge Tube (GDT) or clamping circuit which will short the strip during a big spike... which isn't much to begin with.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4742952_wh...g-circuit.html
http://www.circuitsfinder.com/basic/..._GDT__903.html

To make matters worse the switch on the strip is almost always situated after the protector so any spiked waveforms caused by arcing within the swich will surely be sent into the pachislo. Any good quality surge protector plugged into the strip should smooth those spikes.

I don't know if anyone had problems with plugging a unit directly in a strip, probably not but I wouldn't do that with mine. Also, if you use a strip with surge protection and outside spikes do make it through, it should be taken care of by the 2nd protector.
A lightning surge would surely fuse the circuit in the strip, and the 2nd protector should prove to be a good buffer to your machine.

This is how I have my computer and bank of power supplies for my hard drives set up, I have never worried about power issues with this setup. I have my machines on power strips (not protectors other than the basic breaker they all have) but I just unplug it if I don't plan on using the machines again in the next day or two.

[naha13]

Those are all good ideas for general use. If money is no object, then you would want a UPS system(APC or Best). It will not only protect your equipment during a surge, but keep it running long enough to shut it down yourself. PC's hooked up to one usually have a tie in(like Parachute for APC) that will shutdown your PC if the UPS does not get commercial power restored before the batteries run out. I have a small APC unit on my PC and it works great(especially around here with the intense lightning storms that a power strip would not protect you against. I know people here(Tucson, Az) that have had everything electronic in their house wiped out from one strike including TV's, PC's, appliances, you name it - toast.

[Steve Cebu]

Another place that can fry your computer is through your Cable modem. I lost my Ethernet port to a large spike when i lived overseas.
Not a lot of lightning but it must have hit the cable and that was it for the ethernet port.
It hasn't worked since but I was able at that time to use a PCMCIA card so I was able to use it.
So it's not just power cords but phone ines and Cable like for your TV as well.
We unplug everything during an electrical storm now.
We always lose power anyway, our neighbor lost his flat screen TV to lightning.
Now he unplugs everything if he's home.

[naha13]

Working in the "cable biz" for over 20 years, and personally inspecting many many many devices for suspect damage to consumer electronics, I have to strongly disagree with this statement as it's just not true. I have never seen a modem or set top cause damage to any consumer device(PC or TV), so you really should not spread that rumor. If there was a surge that caused your port to blow up, it was more likely through the electrical power system or poor grounding of the same powering up your PC.

Off my now.

Another place that can fry your computer is through your Cable modem. I lost my Ethernet port to a large spike when i lived overseas.
Not a lot of lightning but it must have hit the cable and that was it for the ethernet port.
It hasn't worked since but I was able at that time to use a PCMCIA card so I was able to use it.
So it's not just power cords but phone ines and Cable like for your TV as well.
We unplug everything during an electrical storm now.
We always lose power anyway, our neighbor lost his flat screen TV to lightning.
Now he unplugs everything if he's home.

[Steve Cebu]

All I can say is after that lightning storm my ethernet port was fried and I still have that laptop.
If we ever meet up you're welcome to examine it. It's an old Dell Xperion.
If the laptop power had been hit it would have fried more than the ethernet port.
That laptop was never shut off it was always left on and still is left on even today.

[westom]

I want to avoid having the kids open the machine by leaving the machine switched on and using the power strip an interupt.

Makes no difference to any electronics if power is switched by its own switch, a power strip switch, a wall switch, a utility lineman, or the nuclear power plant crashing. To electronics, all are same.

Daisy chaining power strips is a human safety violation. Each power strip must have its own connection directly to a wall receptacle.


What is the difference between a cheap power strip protector from Wal-Mart and a more expensive one? Read its manufacturer specifications. The $7 Wal-Mart is electrically equivalent to one selling for $25 or $90. The only difference? The latter has a massive profit margin. And both claim same near zero protection.

A best is a $4 strip from Wal-Mart that has no protector parts; does not have parts that can create a house fire. The most critically important feature on every power strip (protector or non-protector type) is a 15 amp circuit breaker on each power strip. Because fire (not electronics damage) is your greatest concern.

[Forex]

I rewired my machines with ground wire. To help to protect from stray voltage just like your computers and tv and I use a good surge protector. When not playing them always unplugged them same with my Pachinko machine’s
power supply 001.jpgpower supply 002.jpgpower supply 003.jpg

[emmadog]

I don't know about the differences just being in markup. my protector is metal, has a thicker power cable than most I've seen, has a resettable circuit breaker, and the exiting power is "conditioned". ups and downs in current are eliminated which is easier on equipment.

[daverob]

There's a lot of 'snake oil' type claims about surge protectors, and it's one of those subjects that desperately needs these false 'truths' debunking. We've managed to get most people to think more rationally about things like monster cables and the like, but whenever surge protectors are mentioned it seems to bring out almost quasi-religious beliefs about what they can do (and the manufacturers marketing material is no help with this).

They way I see it, is when you're buying a surge protector the actual protector itself is near worthless, what you're paying for is the insurance policy provided by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer stands by it's warranty and actually pays out on any damage claims, then you've got your money's worth. If not then you just have a more expensive power strip. If your householders insurance already covers this kind of damage, then you've wasted your money.

The reason why I have this opinion, is that most modern equipment is perfectly capable of handling the small surges that these power strips claim to protect against. If you have a direct lightning strike (rather than an induced charge, which is what most lightning surges are), then you'll probably be looking at repair bills whether you have a surge protector or not.

If you live in an area where lightning strikes/surges are common, then you're better off having a whole house protection system fitted, where the earth connection is actually capable of carrying the transient currents generated by lightning strikes. Or the cheap alternative, is the oft recommended 'unplug items when you're not using them'.

BTW, having spent several years in a repair workshop, almost every 'lightning damaged' item I've seen has had no more internal damage than cause by a typical age related power supply component failure. Of course the repair paperwork or the 'beyond economic repair' report, was suitably worded to the customers request to ensure that the insurance claim went through without any issues. In fact before the insurance companies tightened up on this, most of the engineers in the repair workshops had A/V systems that were comprised of a majority of 'lightning damaged' components.

[KimbaWLion]

I still one with a power conditioner and one with a REALLY good clamping rate some its not QUITE snake oil. BUT the whole house Lighting Arrester IS the real deal and the right way to go!
Its NOT cheap but its the best way to go!

[westom]

I rewired my machines with ground wire. To help to protect from stray voltage just like your computers and tv and I use a good surge protector.

That is only a safety ground. Provides human safety. Does nothing for transistor safety. In some cases, can make damage easier. Notice two completely different grounds. Earth ground and safety (equipment) grounds are electrically different.

Hardware (transistor) protection means earthing before a transient can enter the building. Safety ground trips a circuit breaker to protect human life. Two different grounds. A surge earthed before entering a building does not go hunting for earth destructively via household appliances.

Telephone operators, with headsets attached to their heads, worked during every thunderstorm. How many died when lightning struck incoming wires? Even that long ago, a 'whole house' solution was routinely implemented so lightning did not seek earth via operators. So that that operators did not die. Also necessary in every home so that transistors are not killed.

A 'whole house' solution is the least expensive. Typically costing tens or 100 times less money. Why does every telephone line to every house already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free? A least expensive solution is also the best solution. As was true 100 years ago. You would not know that from myths promoted in advertising.

Most homes have no protection on the must common source of surges: AC electric. More responsible companies sell well proven solutions - including Siemens, ABB, General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Leviton, and Square D. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Home Depot and Lowes for less than $50. About $1 per protected appliance.

Define a “good surge protector”. Costs more money? A circuit found in a $7 Wal-Mart protector is sold in Belkin, Tripplite, Panamax, etc protectors for $25 or $80. Does a large profit margin make a better protector? Hardly.

daverob accurately demonstrates how easily the scam is promoted. Most who recommends a power strip protector will not even read manufacturer specs. Read those numbers. It does not even claim to protect from any typically destructive surge. No problem. It has an obscene profit margin. And advertising so good that most believe it.

Quality is defined by its advertising? Or its profit margin? Quality is defined by numeric specs.

Direct lightning strike to AC wires down the street either is a direct strike to every household appliance. Or that transient is connected to and harmlessly absorbed by earth ground. Only a homeowner makes that decision. A least expensive and superior solution was proven by over 100 years of experience. Is found in every facility that can not have damage. And not discussed in advertising.

Safety grounding appliances does not provide surge protection. Earth ground a surge; not its victim.

[SteveFury]

Makes no difference to any electronics if power is switched by its own switch, a power strip switch, a wall switch, a utility lineman, or the nuclear power plant crashing. To electronics, all are same.

I vehemently disagree with that statement. Anyone can do an experiment with their own power strip... or wall light switch for that matter.

Connect a considerable load such as two 100 watt light bulbs to the strip. Move the actuating lever of the on/off switch very slowly, just on the edge of on and off. You'll hear arcing and if you keep it there long enough it might even make a burning smell. The internal contacts of the switch are sparking, throwing spikes out the line to the light bulbs which cause them to flicker.
Actuating the switch normally does not eliminate those spikes, it only causes their duration to be less.

Some electronics require a pure unmodified sine wave. I have a small solar power station at my home in which solar panels charge a set of batteries. An inverter converts the DC to AC which is used to run common household appliances. The more expensive inverters output pure sine wave, the lower priced ones output modified (stepped) sine wave which will definitely ruin some electronic devices. I wouldn't plug my pachislo into a modified sine wave inverter, nor would I be comfortable using a $0.12 switch throwing spikes.

The $7 Wal-Mart is electrically equivalent to one selling for $25 or $90. The only difference? The latter has a massive profit margin. And both claim same near zero protection.

This is true one power strip to another because most employ a simple clamping circuit, while a good quality protector uses inductors and other devices to smooth out waveform distortions like those caused by a cheap switch.

[westom]

Anyone can do an experiment with their own power strip... or wall light switch for that matter.
... This is true one power strip to another because most employ a simple clamping circuit, while a good quality protector uses inductors and other devices to smooth out waveform distortions like those caused by a cheap switch.

We all learned how to have knowledge in junior high science. First is a hypothesis. Speculation justified by well known facts and knowledge. The experiment (observation) without a hypothesis (based in well proven science) is why junk science gets promoted.

So, what is inside that protector? Read its box. A 120 volt protector has a let-through voltage of 330 volts. That means it remains inert - does nothing - until voltages exceed 330 volts. How often do you have 330 volts in your house? If a switch is creating 400+ volts, then fix the defective switch. Because a switch, created spikes exceeding 400 volts, is even destroying itself. Fix the problem. Don't cure its symptoms.

Application notes from protector part manufacturers define that inductor. Inductors are implemented so that protection parts can be even smaller without causing a house fire. (Apparent is why I would read application design notes.)

Read manufacturer spec numbers for that inductor. How many henries? How good is its filtering? Near zero. Electronics already contain superior filters. Multiple superior filters. Any filtering done by a protector is already done better and required to be inside electronics. As even required to meet some FCC regulations. Advertising hypes that near zero filter in 'better' power strip by ignoring numbers. Then its 'near zero' filter can be 100% filters.

What is that noise from a switch? Tens of volts. Near zero. Made irrelevant even by protection defined by international design standards for 1970 electronics.

Those missing facts with numbers must exist before a hypothesis can exist. Any conclusion made only from observation (without a hypothesis based in well proven science) is classic junk science.

If conclusions based in observation are true, then a hypothesis would include manufacturer specification numbers. I don't see any numbers posted. No numbers is but another indication of junk science reasoning.

For over 100 years, the well proven solution always has a low impedance (ie short connection) to earth ground. Impedance is another well understood fact that must be defined to have a valid hypothesis.

daverob has accurately defined what was even understood 100 years ago.

[luckydog]

don't worry, be happy

[emmadog]

Critical Thinking... Always a good thing and always in short supply.

[Forex]

is this ok Voltage Dependent Resistorpower supply 008.jpg

[daverob]

I vehemently disagree with that statement. Anyone can do an experiment with their own power strip... or wall light switch for that matter.

Connect a considerable load such as two 100 watt light bulbs to the strip. Move the actuating lever of the on/off switch very slowly, just on the edge of on and off. You'll hear arcing and if you keep it there long enough it might even make a burning smell. The internal contacts of the switch are sparking, throwing spikes out the line to the light bulbs which cause them to flicker.
Actuating the switch normally does not eliminate those spikes, it only causes their duration to be less.

And how about the switch on the power strip, the incoming distribution box, or at the nuclear power station? All mechanical switches arc to some degree or other, and all electronic equipment is designed to deal with this kind of electrical interference. The switch is still simply switching on and off though, and it won't generate any spikes in the voltage either upstream or downstream of the switch. Any 'spikes' you see will be caused by inductive loads in the equipment you are powering from the switch, and these will typically be very small and the manufacturer will have taken this into account when designing the equipment (as these 'spikes' will happen every time the equipment is powered on or off).

Some electronics require a pure unmodified sine wave. I have a small solar power station at my home in which solar panels charge a set of batteries. An inverter converts the DC to AC which is used to run common household appliances. The more expensive inverters output pure sine wave, the lower priced ones output modified (stepped) sine wave which will definitely ruin some electronic devices.

This isn't really relevant to the argument, no surge protector or simple line filter ('conditioner') will make any difference to this. Stepped sine wave converters are generally good for purely resistive loads and switch mode power supplies, they tend to give problems when coupled to devices with inductive loads or regular wound transformers. Most pachislos and modern pachinko's have a regulating switch mode power supply (either connected direct to the line voltage or via a 24v stepdown transformer), you shouldn't have any problems running them from a good quality stepped sine converter.

I wouldn't plug my pachislo into a modified sine wave inverter, nor would I be comfortable using a $0.12 switch throwing spikes.

That's your choice, but I'd like to know if there's a technical reason why you are not comfortable with this? AFAIK The switch inside the pachislo is probably the same as that $0.12 part, and the manufacturer is happy with it as it meets the specs for load it switches.

This is true one power strip to another because most employ a simple clamping circuit, while a good quality protector uses inductors and other devices to smooth out waveform distortions like those caused by a cheap switch.

This is an argument for line filtering, rather than surge protection, and is a completely different thing. All equipment that uses switch mode power supplies, needs to have line filters to meet EMC regulations. You probably have more line filtering attached to your household supply from the input filters of all the electronic gadgets that are left plugged in 24/7 than you would get in even a $100 surge protector.


BTW to the original poster, we seem to have wandered off topic (happens a lot round here!) and your question seems to have got lost in noise. Switching your machines on and off from a switched power strip is fine. A cheap non surge-suppressed one will work just as well in this application, though if you prefer spending the extra money on a surge-suppressed one you can!


Finally, I'll offer a warm welcome to westom. I was wondering when you'd finally turn up to PachiTalk, after seeing you posting on many of the other forums I frequent when the topic of surge suppression is brought up. Do you own any Pachinko or Pachislo machines, or do we need to convince you to start collecting them?

[SteveFury]

We all learned how to have knowledge in junior high science. First is a hypothesis. Speculation justified by well known facts and knowledge. The experiment (observation) without a hypothesis (based in well proven science) is why junk science gets promoted.

So, what is inside that protector? Read its box. A 120 volt protector has a let-through voltage of 330 volts. That means it remains inert - does nothing - until voltages exceed 330 volts. How often do you have 330 volts in your house? If a switch is creating 400+ volts, then fix the defective switch. Because a switch, created spikes exceeding 400 volts, is even destroying itself. Fix the problem. Don't cure its symptoms.

Application notes from protector part manufacturers define that inductor. Inductors are implemented so that protection parts can be even smaller without causing a house fire. (Apparent is why I would read application design notes.)

Read manufacturer spec numbers for that inductor. How many henries? How good is its filtering? Near zero. Electronics already contain superior filters. Multiple superior filters. Any filtering done by a protector is already done better and required to be inside electronics. As even required to meet some FCC regulations. Advertising hypes that near zero filter in 'better' power strip by ignoring numbers. Then its 'near zero' filter can be 100% filters.

What is that noise from a switch? Tens of volts. Near zero. Made irrelevant even by protection defined by international design standards for 1970 electronics.

Those missing facts with numbers must exist before a hypothesis can exist. Any conclusion made only from observation (without a hypothesis based in well proven science) is classic junk science.

If conclusions based in observation are true, then a hypothesis would include manufacturer specification numbers. I don't see any numbers posted. No numbers is but another indication of junk science reasoning.

For over 100 years, the well proven solution always has a low impedance (ie short connection) to earth ground. Impedance is another well understood fact that must be defined to have a valid hypothesis.

daverob has accurately defined what was even understood 100 years ago.

If you're saying all surge protectors are the same you might find this article helpful:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_compa...d_performance/

And the NEMA Surge protection institute:
http://www.nemasurge.com/

Clearly they have different features and levels of protection. I don't believe the problems associated with surges and the equipment used to control them are junk science.

A common unfiltered switch will not cause over-voltage spikes but distort (modify) the AC wave form as demonstrated in my experiment which anyone can do, and modified wave forms can damage some electronic equipment:
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Av.../MQP_D_1_2.pdf

"These devices are able to run more sensitive devices that a modified
sine wave may cause damage to such as: laser printers, laptop computers, power tools, digital clocks and
medical equipment."

I already mentioned that people probably have not had issues with using a power strip switch, but I would not do that with my own electronic equipment.