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Thread: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

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    Blind Shooter flashlight's Avatar
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    Default Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    I didnt see any posts about this and i figured id share my idea and see if anyone can run with it.

    The spacerail marble rollercoaster set


    I believe the augers are stackable based on this picture


    and the augers themselves are available at SpaceRail Gear Box, Stand And Elevator Parts - SpaceRails.com but its almost cheaper to get 2, level 1 sets. According to what ive read the standard ball size for these sets is .5 inches, unless im mistaken A Pachinko ball is made of steel and is 11 millimeters (approx 7/16"). The guard rails for the augers might require a little modification to prevent the balls from falling out going up. Also im not great with resistors, to know how you would be able to wire the motor to 24 volts off the transformer. I figured id share my potential idea, since ball lifters are so expensive and this looks more than sufficient for pachinko needs!
    Last edited by flashlight; 01-06-2012 at 01:47 PM.

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    Eye Shooter Steve Cebu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    The auger design is a good idea. The problem will be weight over the overall height.

    Let's say you want the ball to go up 4 feet. How many balls will that be and how much will it weigh?
    I'm guessing quite a lot. You could probably get a motor and get a metal auger and put it inside a
    PVC or Plexiglass tube for rigidity. If it's the correct diameter tube then the balls will just screw up
    to the top and fall out.
    The company I worked for until it recently shutdown designed things exactly like this.

    Weight will put stress on the lifter motor as well as stress on the plastic auger.
    It's a really good idea tho!

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Well thats not too hard to fix then, split the load between two augers, one at a higher position to receive balls from the lower auger. This allows for a secondary collection half way between the augers to stagger the balls too, instead of a constant stream.



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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    That might work, handing it off to another auger.
    I was thinking something like this might be a bit more bweffy.

    http://www.augermfgspec.com/order/straight_auger.html

    You need a feeder tube or funnel and enough oomph that the balls won't roll back down, because of their own weight.
    An auger is better than using a rubber band to grab the balls.
    Cost is another issue.
    The thing about the auger you are showing is that it doesn't look heavy duty enough to last moving hundreds of thousands
    of ball bearings over several years of time.
    We built specialty industrial equipment including stuff like conveyer belts etc... We had a roller one setup that was a nightmare and
    it had to move weight had a 90 degree turn and had to last. You wouldn't believe just what the bearings cost for that job!
    All the rollers we made as well. It was made to last. Nightmare job but in the end it worked like a dream!

    Of course maybe I am over-engineering it a bit.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    theres a post about a member that built his own... its a great read...

    let me see if i can find it ..
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    Last edited by Moparformances; 01-06-2012 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    That option looks expensive if its a custom build. Something else i was thinking of, if the auger was angled so that the weight of the ball was actually on the support strut/pole that also keeps it in the auger/channel, it would reduce the amount of force/total weight on the auger itself. Im not an engineer but my vague recollection of college physics and google skills lead me to

    http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/AnglePull.html

    Traveling beyond 90 degrees
    • resistive force progressively decreases
      • at 45 degrees, approximately 71% of weight * lever arm ratio
      • at 30 degrees, approximately 50% of weight * lever arm ratio

    I dont know how much weight 4 feet of augered pachinko balls weigh, but i think splitting the load between two augurs is a wise idea. Angling a single augur is probably not enough of a reduction in weight. And i dont know the height of the augur included in that marble kit. Im tempted to order 2, level 1 kits and just give it the old college try! Which means go at it having no idea what im doing, usually ending in getting drunk and giving up

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    i wish i knew more about the height of the level 7 unit in total

    Genuine Space Rail DIY Steel Space Ball Roller Level 7 | eBay

    Thats not a bad price if its tall enough to meet our needs. Even better, it has more than enough options/parts to provide ball lifting to two or more different machines side by side, if it drew from a unified trough, but all machines had tracks leading to the central trough. It shouldnt be too difficult to rig something to either evenly distribute the balls, or forks to control which machine is getting the balls. The simplest method would be a chain, and just end /block the last exit in the chain, and the balls "back up" to the second last exit in the chain. Im sure with the parts it comes with or some magyvering it couldnt be that hard to add train style switch tracks to steer balls to one machine instead of another.

    Or if theres enough height, you could just have different tracks to connect to the augur/elevator leading to the hoppers/trays of different machines.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Yep, it's tricky designing and building these things only to find out a whole wallet lighter that it doesn't work.
    I will read that entire article later as it looks fascinating!

    The problem with angling an auger is you want the ball to travel mostly straight up and drop into the hopper.
    The auger I posted was for reference not as a model to buy. Also each turn of the auger will screw up a certain
    distance some will really move fast others not so much.
    I used to work with an engineer who loved this sort of math problem.
    1 linear foot of pachinko balls is equal to 27 balls approximately, it's slightly under 12" that weighs .318 lbs. or 142 grams.
    Multiply that by 4 feet and it's 1.272 lbs. and 108-110 balls.
    An auger will probably grab 2-3 balls for each level of the auger depending on the height between the blades and
    the rpm of the auger itself.
    The weight goes up fairly dramatically and with a fast feeding auger you could easily have 5-6 balls per turn.
    multply that by the number of turns on the auger screw itself and you could overheat a small motor easily.
    It's always something failing on these that are the kicker. You need a heavy duty auger but too much weight and it's
    overkill. So a solid metal auger would be great but not if it weighs 4 lbs.
    I think the way you will transfer pachinko balls from one screw to the other will be interesting if not problematic.
    Occams razor applies here.

    Nonetheless I would love to see what you come up with.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    The ideas are great for ball returns, but one must be careful about these , they will end up looking like a rube goldberg invention,tubes and shafts and tracks flipping steel balls into pots and pans into ball gloves falling into paddle wheels just to get a steel ball to lift 33 inches.
    IMAGINATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN KNOWLEDGE

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Damn this puts a hitch in the plan


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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Neat idea. For info though, To keep up with one machine you will need to lift 1 ball per second, or 60 balls a minute. Or quicker if you have a storage container at the bottom.
    Ian #UKPachinko

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    Ensign Newton owennewton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenclam View Post
    Neat idea. For info though, To keep up with one machine you will need to lift 1 ball per second, or 60 balls a minute. Or quicker if you have a storage container at the bottom.



    I think it is closer to 100 a minute depending on the feed rate of the machine. I know Luminas feed 90 per minute into the play field.
    Last edited by owennewton; 01-06-2012 at 10:03 PM. Reason: I spell like a 3rd grader
    the

    LLTR

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    Stuey - The RADministrator MrGneiss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    The marble rollercoaster lifters have been discussed a few times over the years, but I'm not sure anyone has tried them yet..Keep us updated if you do try it!!


    It seems so simple, just lifting balls 3 feet..We even have real lifters to look at..from hand cranked vintage ones to modern ones with gears and belts, wheels and chains, but an easily built lifter made out of inexpensive, commonly found parts still eludes us!!



    "Blowing smoke rings at the moon."

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    I spoke with my dad about it. He has 48 years or so of designing and building all sorts of machines over the years. He's now fully retired and doesn't have much interest in doing anything except enjoying the Florida sun. Guess that's eluding him as it's 45 degrees at night.

    But he did give me some pointers and I'll look into it. I'm trying to reach a fellow fromer co-worker who is an engineer, but so far no luck.
    I think moving the balls should be able to go from the floor to the top of the hopper or from the chute in the back.
    The issue is the balls jamming up and how much to produce the parts in such a way that there is room for profit.
    The most a ball hopper can effectively retail for is $180 after that it's priced out of the avergae buyers range.
    Ideally $125 or so is where you want the price point to hit and still make a profit.
    If you made 1,000 of these that might be possible, if you jobbed them out to a Chinese factory.
    There are so many design issues to overcome. Readily available parts are just not there and if you want a really cool
    ball lifter that doesn't jam initial prototypes will be costly.
    Making anything in the US is too difficult. Everyone wants big money for small jobs and they don't care about repeat business.
    They just want money now, no vision for the future. It's sad really.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Thats the problem with small markets like this,R and D can be costly and trouble shooting time consuming,let alone parts manufacturing.To keep costs down is very hard to do.Most of us just make gadgets for ourselves,just to make the hobby more fun.
    IMAGINATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN KNOWLEDGE

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Yep, because you will only likely make one and even that one is a lot of work.
    I read every page of the thread about making one of these, looked at every pic and
    how everything was done.
    Strictly from a manufacturing standpoint he made a lot of mistakes, but as far as
    genius in his design it was a work of art. I mean it really was.

    My Dad is in his 80's so he's really done in as far as work, and I don't blame him.
    But hecould sort this out if he and I were able to sit down and brainstorm it.
    Unfortunately he's 2,000 miles away.

    To make these affordable and marketable you have to have a way to consistantly and cheaply assemble each piece
    quickly and without fuss. That means having parts custom made. That means it's an expensive initial investment.
    Every feed tray has to be custom designed and tested.
    Plus you will need it to send balls to different heights. So if you want the ball feeder to sit on the floor and pump
    balls all the way to the top of the hopper which is close to 6 feet that's a lot different than if you want to set it
    behind the machine and run it that way. Guys who use wall mounted cabinets are better served by having a floor
    mounted unit and also that would allow you to feed 5-6 machines via a single tray with 1 ball feeder.
    I just don't know thw market for ball feeders but at $300 a pop and then add shipping it's clearly not for
    everyone. If the price is affordable then it becomes worth it rather than springing for 4,000 balls.

    I guess I've been in manufacturing for too long.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    I have a custom built unit that I did off Mr. D's thread. I found the right gear motor, gears (plastic)
    and so on plus I still know how to get all the peices. That auger tho is exactly what I am looking for!

    I need someone to manufacture an auger but it needs to be alot longer.

    I'm alomost done with my little test design for it but let me clarify the weight dispute.
    Two lines of balls and the motor I'm using has no problems 50:1 12v. Its actually not that bad
    based on the design of the "archemeides drill" (I think thats how you spell it). What is an issue
    though is the friction resulting from the imperfections of my custom lift drill.

    I'm trying to come up with a good design to deliver two rows of balls to the lift. I have found
    a company that can do the stamping for the auger casing and more, I just have to come up with a
    CAD model. Been working on alot of stuff, it just takes a long time doing it all by yourself working 6 days a week.

    Its going though. Once I get setup with the metal stampings it will help move the process along alot further.

    I decided to go with stamped metal to keep costs down, besides you can stamp metal in various ways to make a
    once thin and fexable panel rigid and tough, and its cheapppp!

    My brother is setting up a simple electrical board, still have to figure out where and how I could get that manufactured but shouldn't
    be an issue. Oh yea and the top switch, working on that as well!

    Tryin my best to eventually provide em! I hope you all can bear with me!!!

    Hope you all had a SAFE & HAPPY new year!

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
    Yep, because you will only likely make one and even that one is a lot of work.
    I read every page of the thread about making one of these, looked at every pic and
    how everything was done.
    Strictly from a manufacturing standpoint he made a lot of mistakes, but as far as
    genius in his design it was a work of art. I mean it really was.

    My Dad is in his 80's so he's really done in as far as work, and I don't blame him.
    But hecould sort this out if he and I were able to sit down and brainstorm it.
    Unfortunately he's 2,000 miles away.

    To make these affordable and marketable you have to have a way to consistantly and cheaply assemble each piece
    quickly and without fuss. That means having parts custom made. That means it's an expensive initial investment.
    Every feed tray has to be custom designed and tested.
    Plus you will need it to send balls to different heights. So if you want the ball feeder to sit on the floor and pump
    balls all the way to the top of the hopper which is close to 6 feet that's a lot different than if you want to set it
    behind the machine and run it that way. Guys who use wall mounted cabinets are better served by having a floor
    mounted unit and also that would allow you to feed 5-6 machines via a single tray with 1 ball feeder.
    I just don't know thw market for ball feeders but at $300 a pop and then add shipping it's clearly not for
    everyone. If the price is affordable then it becomes worth it rather than springing for 4,000 balls.

    I guess I've been in manufacturing for too long.
    Very true but...

    Plastic gears (about 20.00 for the two i used)

    Gear Motor (21.95)

    Metal stampings (18.00 approx. based on current calculations I know it looks way too low but thats the beauty!)
    This includes:
    -Lift Shaft
    -Base
    -Collection hopper
    -Upper Switch

    Hardware (approx. 8.00)

    Bearings (16.00 for two but may go down, this is based off speciality 16mm I.D. bearings. With the design of the plastic auger the I.D. would be stepped down potentially reducing the cost of each bearing used.)

    Electronics (approx. 25.00)

    Of course this doesn't cover the cost for dies and such, just a projected price. I really have to work hard to make
    the absolute best prototype beforehand so I don't have to go back and have and entirely new die cut.

    Thats what will cost you.

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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Ok I see that you are spending roughly $109 so to make a reasonable profit you'd need to sell these for over $200.
    Price can drop dramitically if you buy in quantity.

    Honestly I would not use plastic gears. You are far better off using a spider gear with a rubber center.
    That will allow for flex/play and only raise up your motor 2".
    If you are using a stepdown motor then you already have the rpms you require so no need for twin gears.
    Using plastic gears is asking for trouble as they won't hold up.
    Just curious why you went with metal stampings instead of high impact plastic for your collection hopper?
    Mold costs?
    Also I don't know why all the electronics are required? It seems like you shoudl have a simple on/off switch.
    If you are playing you will want balls being fed into the hopper. Then just shut it manually off with a switch.
    It's going to run but if you are playing this should be a non-issue just shiut it off when you stop playing.
    Or am I missing something?

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    Pachi Puro Moparformances's Avatar
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    Default Re: Possible new idea for cheap ball lifter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post
    Also I don't know why all the electronics are required? It seems like you shoudl have a simple on/off switch.
    If you are playing you will want balls being fed into the hopper. Then just shut it manually off with a switch.
    It's going to run but if you are playing this should be a non-issue just shiut it off when you stop playing.
    Or am I missing something?
    it depends on how your using your lifter..

    Orange lifter are used on the premis of what the top hopper needs.. when the top hopper is low on balls the lack of weight will turn the machine on and fill the hopper.. there are two ways for the lifter to shut off.. if the lifter runs out of balls in the bottom hopper the machines will shut off.. and when the top hopper is full it will shut off...

    im sure it is to keep the runtime of the lifter low and keep it cool..

    it seems we are talking about a lifter to feed multi machines with larger top storage.. so a lifter that only ran when balls were in the catch tray makes sense.. ie less wireing needed...
    Never Doubt that a small group of thoughtful, .......... /........ If your not going to stand behind our troops
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