Dongle news and parlour questions.

[daverob]

The version 2 dongle hardware is coming along nicely. I've just finished putting together a handful of samples and I'm testing them to make sure that they all fully comply with the specification. If all goes well I expect to be posting a request for beta testers sometime next week.

Next week I'll be turning my attention to software updates, I've already got the dongle code running on the new hardware and have added a few new features, such as auto-detection of the smartcard option and setup mode is now accessed by holding both buttons on power up (this can be disabled by using the setup jumper). My next objective is to improve the emulation of the smartcard system and to try to make it more accurately replicate the parlour experience.

Now, I've done quite a bit of googling (in both English and Japanese) and YouTube searches to look for videos, but can't really find the detailed information I need. While I'd love to fly over to Japan and check these things out for myself (and one day I will!), it's slightly too high an expense to justify right now. So I need the assistance of those of you who have visited the Japanese pachinko halls and used the prepaid cards and card units.

Anything that can be remembered about the system would be great, but I'm specifically looking for information on what is shown on the credit display at various times, when the 'Ball Loan Available' LED next to the credit display is lit, and if the shooter handle is disabled at any time.

I'm interested in operation with a pre-paid card, and also on the machines that take cash directly.


Specific questions are below, for the questions asking about the display I'd also like to know if the Ball Loan Available LED is lit or not...

Are balls usually dispensed in an appropriate amount for a single credit count, or are other amounts used? (eg normal pachi is 25 balls for 100 Yen credit, ichipachi is 100 balls for 100 Yen credit.)

Are balls automatically dispensed (without needing to press the ball loan button) at any time? eg when inserting coins/card into the machine.

Does the credit display count down when you press the ball loan button, or is it after the balls are paid out?

What is shown on the display when no card is inserted?
When card/cash is inserted does the display just show the credit available?
When you run out of credit, what is shown on the display?
When you eject the card, is anything shown on the display?

What happens to the display/ball loan available LED if the machine cannot make a payout (in a parlour this is most likely due to the ball shooter tray/lower payout tray being full).

Is the shooter handle disabled at any time (eg when there is no card present in the card unit).


I realise that this is a lot of questions, but any answers or any other comments about your parlour experiences will be gratefully received. It doesn't matter if you can't answer all of the questions, or if you are uncertain of your answers, every detail will be really helpful to me.

[Sederien]

Are balls usually dispensed in an appropriate amount for a single credit count, or are other amounts used? (eg normal pachi is 25 balls for 100 Yen credit, ichipachi is 100 balls for 100 Yen credit.)

4 yen pachi is almost always done in 500 yen increments. This means that the display reads 10 (for 1000 yen put in) and will count down to 5 when the loan button is pressed on the machine. (1 tick down for every 25 balls released.)

In some palours, they use 1000 yen increments so 250 balls will come out at once. This is uncommon, though...

2 yen pachi is done the same way (500 yen increments) and will spill out 250 balls at a time. Again, counting down 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 (blinking as it goes) as each 50 balls comes out.

2 yen pachi is also served in 200 yen increments and spits out 100 balls at a time. (So the counter goes from 10 to 8.)

1 yen pachi is almost always done on 200 yen increments. (200 balls) But I have also seen 100 yen increments (count down from 10 to 9).

So there are choices depending on the palour.

Are balls automatically dispensed (without needing to press the ball loan button) at any time? eg when inserting coins/card into the machine.

If there is a coin slot (accepting 500 or 100 yen coins) then it will disperse automatically regardless of the value of pachi balls. This does mean a huge 500 ball spillout if playing 1 yen pachi.

Payout automatically on insertion of bills is very rare in palours for pachinko (unless they do the 1,000 yen at a time payout, in which case only a 1,000 yen bill will trigger an automatic payout while a 10,000 or 5,000 yen bill will fill the counter and wait for your button press). However, it is common on pachislo (even if you in 10,000 yen, the machine will eat 1,000 and spit out an appropriate number of tokens).

Does the credit display count down when you press the ball loan button, or is it after the balls are paid out?

As stated above, it counts down slowly with a faster blink animation. I'd say the numbers blink every 1/4 to 1/2 second and count down as fast it takes for the value of 100 yen to be dispensed (depending on value of balls). So 1 yen pachi display will blink at the same rate (starting with 10 and once 100 balls are out will switch to 9, then another 100 to 8, etc.) as 4 yen pachi, even though 4 yen pachi takes much less time to count down.

What is shown on the display when no card is inserted?

Typically nothing OR a small animation. The animation is difficult to describe in text, but it is akin to a box (top or bottom section of the 8 digital display) circling around the 3 number display with a short trail behind it.

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Repeated.

In most cases, the animation occurs right after you hit 0 (it never actually shows the number 0, it just does the I'm empty animation) for a short 5 to 10 second period, and then goes blank.

It may also do this animation while READING the card value.

When card/cash is inserted does the display just show the credit available?

That is correct. 100 yen = 1.

Palours can accept values up to 20,000 yen on the cards. Though most only allow 10,000 max.

When you run out of credit, what is shown on the display?

See above.

When you eject the card, is anything shown on the display?

Usually that same animation for the 3-5 seconds it takes to eject the card.

What happens to the display/ball loan available LED if the machine cannot make a payout (in a parlour this is most likely due to the ball shooter tray/lower payout tray being full).

E-2 or P01

...if I remember correctly.

Also, it may just blink constantly on the number it's stuck at. This actually happens more often if the hopper is empty (the palours have huge feeding systems that occasionally get stuck).

When payout resumes, the number will resume counting down as usual.

Is the shooter handle disabled at any time (eg when there is no card present in the card unit).

Never. You can fire blanks as much as you want.

Hope that helps! I'm getting the "partner discount" when I leave Japan, right?

[daverob]

4 yen pachi is almost always done in 500 yen increments. ...
...So there are choices depending on the palour.

Ok, so if I add two settings, the first sets the value (in balls) of one credit 25,50,75,100 etc, and the second for how many credits are paid out for each button press, then I should have got all those choices covered.

If there is a coin slot (accepting 500 or 100 yen coins) then it will disperse automatically regardless of the value of pachi balls. This does mean a huge 500 ball spillout if playing 1 yen pachi.

I can understand that on machines with a single shooter/payout tray, as when the tray fills, the machine will store the payout and keep the tray topped up until all 500 balls have paid out. But with machines with a lower payout tray wouldn't it cause loan balls to spill over into the lower tray. Would the parlour behaviour protocol allow you to scoop balls from the lower tray and put them in the shooter tray by hand?

I'm not sure how I'm going to handle this automatic payout at the moment, It would be easy to add a setting to make all coins/bills auto payout, but a lot harder to differentiate between them.

As stated above, it counts down slowly with a faster blink animation.

I might try adding a blink animation during payout. I assume that during a payout error, it just continues blinking until the error is resolved. If so then this shouldn't be that difficult to achieve.

Typically nothing OR a small animation. The animation is difficult to describe in text,

That sounds like a perfectly good textual description, if I understand it right, the animation should look something like this (you may need to click the image to animate it)...

display_animation.gif

Does the speed of the animation look about right?

Palours can accept values up to 20,000 yen on the cards. Though most only allow 10,000 max.

I think I'll keep the theoretical 99,900 yen limit on my cards, as I don't have to worry about gambling regulations or mafia money laundering.

E-2 or P01

OK, I think I've seen some of these codes in some frame manuals (need to put my translation hat on!). I think just keeping the display blinking will be a lot easier to implement. I have been thinking about scrolling error messages across the display, but that's probably too complicated.

Never. You can fire blanks as much as you want.

OK, I might still add a setting to disable the shooter handle when there's no card present in the card reader slot, as this might be a useful option for home users.


You haven't mentioned the 'Ball loan available' LED (球貸し可LED) at all, is this lit at any time, or can I just leave it switched off.

Hope that helps! I'm getting the "partner discount" when I leave Japan, right?

Sure, just let me know when you return to being a collector and I'm sure we can sort something out.

[Sederien]

But with machines with a lower payout tray wouldn't it cause loan balls to spill over into the lower tray. Would the parlour behaviour protocol allow you to scoop balls from the lower tray and put them in the shooter tray by hand?

Huh? *laughing* Of course you can.

They're your balls to use as you see fit. You can even ask for a tray behind you and a staff member will hoist it up for you so you can continue playing long after you stopped your first few wins.

You can also (depending on the palour) pick up your tray and move to another machine. Only thing to keep in mind is that you will often be asked which machines you played when you cash out. (The palours like to keep track of these things for data mining later.) Also, this only works when you have one tray.

display_animation.gif

Does the speed of the animation look about right?

Darn near perfect!

Oh, by the way. I realized a mistake. It does show a 0 if (a) you have credits on the card other than money or (b) it's your personal registered card and not a loan card. (Some palours use a trayless system where balls are dropped into a bin under the lower tray and counted as they come out. The value is stored on your card.)

Also, turns out that P01 is correct or P02, P03, P04, P05 (how many you had left in the payout so no more than 5 typically). Though as you mentioned, in MOST cases it just blinks. So leave it like that and you'll be fine.

You haven't mentioned the 'Ball loan available' LED (球貸し可LED) at all, is this lit at any time, or can I just leave it switched off.

You didn't ask!

Anyway, the ball loan lamp is only on when there is an amount on the card and a card is inserted. Otherwise, it's off.

Sure, just let me know when you return to being a collector and I'm sure we can sort something out.

I'll take 5.

Now please excuse me. I need to hunt down this -one- mosquito (I swear, it flew right into my face the moment I typed that word... AND I MISSED!) in my room before I fall asleep.

[daverob]

Huh? *laughing* Of course you can.

They're your balls to use as you see fit.

It's just I'd read somewhere that in some parlours there was an etiquette where once balls hit the doru box they were considered to be out of play, and it was frowned upon if you grabbed handfuls of balls to put back into the machine.

Oh, by the way. I realized a mistake. It does show a 0 if (a) you have credits on the card other than money or (b) it's your personal registered card and not a loan card. (Some palours use a trayless system where balls are dropped into a bin under the lower tray and counted as they come out. The value is stored on your card.)

So on these trayless systems, the prize ball count is stored separately from the money count on the card.

I can make an option to either show zero or the animation and then a blank display, probably very little point in going any further than this.

Also, turns out that P01 is correct or P02, P03, P04, P05 (how many you had left in the payout so no more than 5 typically).

I suspect this might be dependant on the pachinko machine connected to the card unit. When instructed to make a payout of 25 balls, some machines will make sure that they have enough balls to complete the payout and will return an error to the card unit (so the card unit displays P01 etc), other pachinko machines will start the payout and then just leave the card unit waiting until the payout is completed, I expect this will leave the card unit blinking the display.

You didn't ask!

I'm sure I did.

I'll take 5.

Now these are great answers to my questions, and I'm eternally grateful to you for posting them, but I don't quite value them at £125 worth of dongles. Aim a little lower and you might get lucky.


Now the real question is, does anyone else want a dongle that more accurately replicates an experience they've never actually had, or am I the only one who is insane enough to need this.

[rubberratt]

It is always a danger to advertize new product before your old stock is depleted.

I would like to pre-order 10 of the new dongles please (ducks to avoid the slings and arrows of outraged PT members)

IOW - YEs I can't live without this new functionality !!!

I assume I can use my existing card readers
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Repeated.

I have heard this referred to as "Snaking"

[compirate]

If it makes you happy, go for it

[Sederien]

I'm sure I did.

Now these are great answers to my questions, and I'm eternally grateful to you for posting them, but I don't quite value them at £125 worth of dongles. Aim a little lower and you might get lucky.

I stand corrected.

And ok... 4 then. Or do you not value my time? ()

In all seriousness, I'm here for at least another year and then I have more schooling to attend (likely), so I'm out of the market for a while. And even if I was in the market, I'd rather spend some to support your work on this.

[rubberratt]

If it makes you happy, go for it

Thanks Gibi-san

[compirate]

Thanks Gibi-san

I was remarking on Daverob's last comment, but you snuck in before I posted

[rubberratt]

[daverob]

It is always a danger to advertize new product before your old stock is depleted.

I have noticed that sales have slowed down a bit recently. I expect it's due to a combination of waiting for the new features, and some people hoping to get a freebie in return for beta testing the new version.

Once I've finished the version 2 code, I will have a go at compiling it for the processors in the older dongles, so it should be possible to update them with all of the new features that can be fit into their smaller memory space.

It shouldn't be too difficult updating the r1.1 dongles (the ones that have shipped since October 2009) as the processor chip is the same, just with a quarter of the memory. Version 1.0 might be a little harder, as there are some differences between the processors which might make things more tricky. But I don't see any reason why I won't be able to update all of the older dongles with the new features that are compatible with their hardware.

I would like to pre-order 10 of the new dongles please

That's six more than I've got at the moment, so you're just going to have to try to be a little more patient.

I assume I can use my existing card readers

The card readers will be fine with the new dongles. The only changes planned for the card readers are to add a couple of tracks to the PCB to allow me to use secure smartcards with the reader board (for another non pachi related project) and to sort out a suitable plastic box to put them in.

I've found a box to use that is a perfect fit for the reader boards (both old and new), I just need to find the money for a new dremel type drill and stand to cut the card slot in the side of the box. I've knackered the bearings on my old drill with all of the expansion connector holes in the dongles, and it won't cut a long straight slot without making a complete mess of the edges.

[compirate]

won't cut a long straight slot without making a complete mess of the edges.

Time to build that CNC Mill

[daverob]

Time to build that CNC Mill

Don't think I haven't already looked at dozens of these plans, along with RepRap and MakerBot rapid prototyping machines. But the problem is that I'll spend 6 months making one of these and playing around learning the software needed to control it, and I won't make any progress on the dongles.

I'd be better off spending the time working on more profitable projects, and buying a ready built desktop CNC (or at least a 'can be assembled by monkeys' kit of parts).

Anyway, as much as I'd like one, they're a bit of an overkill for a simple slot. Just mount the box between a couple of blocks of wood, so you can slide the box from left to right along the axis of the slot and use a small milling tool in a drill press. You might scrap a couple of boxes getting everything set up right, but that'll be a lot cheaper than a CNC.

[Sederien]

So... I stopped by a palour and looked for the animation just to confirm and it seems like there are a few variations. The one I saw was:

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blink three times quickly (double the animation speed)

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So if you want the confirmed thing, that's it above. Personally... I like my earlier version better! (It's a heck of a lot less distracting and cleaner too!)

Second, apparently it does play when nothing is in the machine. HOWEVER, I note that this varies depending on the system the palour uses.

[compirate]

Anyway, as much as I'd like one, they're a bit of an overkill for a simple slot. Just mount the box between a couple of blocks of wood, so you can slide the box from left to right along the axis of the slot and use a small milling tool in a drill press. You might scrap a couple of boxes getting everything set up right, but that'll be a lot cheaper than a CNC.

They do have some pretty cool software for prototyping circuit boards too.

PCB-GCode Phorum

[Montana]

Now the real question is, does anyone else want a dongle that more accurately replicates an experience they've never actually had, or am I the only one who is insane enough to need this.

Count me in

[rubberratt]

That's six more than I've got at the moment, so you're just going to have to try to be a little more patient.

Patience is a virtue... I will try to be more patient.

[daverob]

So... I stopped by a palour and looked for the animation just to confirm and it seems like there are a few variations. The one I saw was:...

You stopped by a parlour, just for me. I guess I owe you expenses now , or did we win.

I think I'll stick with your original animation, mainly because I've already started on the code to display it, and it's quite complicated getting it to display right without using up quite a lot of memory (remember I only have 2k to fit everything into). If I have time I might add some more animated transitions and allow the user to select them in the set-up mode, but I've got more important features to work on right now.

They do have some pretty cool software for prototyping circuit boards too.

I've already got a few hundred dollars worth of photo-etch equipment for making PCBs, and I think that dipping a bit of copper covered board into a hot bubbling tank of brown liquid, while wearing a stained white lab coat, gives a much more authentic 'mad scientist' look. When you compare that to simply standing around waiting for a CNC engraver to do it's job, even the addition of the geeky safety glasses isn't enough to get the image quite right.

[kmhamel]

How's the experiments with the ball counter turning out.