New Jersey is changing the law !

[Bobby Bowling]

“Thing of value” and “consideration” are very subjective concepts which can be construed abstractly by those pursuing some agenda. For example, the district attorney who sought the Texas Attorney General’s opinion on the legality of poker tournaments suggested that establishments offering free entry to poker tournaments receive consideration by customers purchasing food and drink, thus the “free” chips have value.

However, one cannot look at the statutes alone when considering the law, case law must also be examined as our countryÂ’s system of jurisprudence relies on the concept of precedent in the interpretation of law because of subjectivity. Courts examine the rulings of other courts in making their decisions, the higher the court decision, the more weight it carries. A Supreme Court ruling carries more weight than a lower court ruling, providing of course that it is on point.

In my brief to the Texas Attorney General I pointed out that even if a proprietor sponsoring a poker tournament sold nothing but owned petroleum stock, that proprietor would benefit as surely some of the contestants used petroleum fueled vehicles to attend. The courts insist the amount of direct or indirect consideration received immaterial. The DA seeking the AG opinion cited a case in which poker played in a private place (legal in Texas) was illegal because a dealer received consideration by means of tips. However, the DA failed to point out (but I didnÂ’t) that the court made the clear distinction that the dealer who received consideration was also an occasional participant in the games. The dealerÂ’s participation is what made it illegal; this is why contests always state employees, etc. are ineligible to participate.

I spent several days arguing with this DA (I was very surprised that he spent that much time arguing with me, and wondered just exactly what he did in his job). I used countless hypothetical situations including coin tossing, golf, and basketball in analogy to poker. He agreed each of the situations I presented was not gambling but could never comprehend the analogy to poker. He would always come back with “poker is gambling.” I finally told him I’d wait for the decision from the horse’s mouth (the AG opinion) rather than from the horse’s ass. All I can say about this DA is I hope it is he who prosecutes me if I ever wind up in criminal court. BTW, he is the “Research Attorney” for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association. I’m very unimpressed.

[Frank A]

Many vendors and companies on ebay will no longer ship a Pachislo to a NJ address. Grandview was selling to Costco and had to take all of the machines back. I called my local Sam's Club yesterday and they said that they were not allowed to sell machines in NJ even though the SKU number comes up on their web site. Maybe Grandview can give some input here. My local retail vendor, Central Pools in Freehold NJ, had to send their entire inventory to their store in Pennsylvania because they were visited by the Attorney General's office and were told that each sale was subject to a $ 500.00 fine. I did get a good half price deal on some of their remaining inventory of tokens. I have never seen anything official in the papers, but to satisfy my curiosity, I called the District Attorney's office in Hamilton today and spoke to a Mr. Davis who said that all slot machines except for pre 1941 models have always been illegal to own or to sell in NJ. He said that he will send me the State statute. He also said that there has been discussion about this in the DA's office, but the law would have to be changed by the State Legislaure. Frank A

[arbycoffee]

wow :-(

[Bobby Bowling]

He said that he will send me the State statute.

Frank,

I recently tried to research NJ statutes and their website is certainly not as user friendly as TexasÂ’. I became frustrated and gave up. Please email me the statute the DA sends you (just the chapter and subsection quoted will likely do) and I will examine it then research Lexis-Nexis for appropriate case law. Perhaps there may be some ammunition to use against the NJ Gestapo.

“Liberty and Freedom for all”

[TeeDubya]

Does anyone besides me think that, possibly, too many vendors are calling these things "Slot Machines," and talking about "Las Vegas action?" It's a given that using those words will bring more people to your eBay auction but it's giving people (i.e., lawmakers and law enforcement) the wrong idea. If you're selling a product that fits into a grey area, why would you try to characterize it in such a way that it begins to look like contraband?

Somebody is trying to have it both ways. It's not working and it's never going to work.

Nearly all of us have said that our pachislos are a lot more fun than American slots, so it's a shame that the mere words being used to describe and sell the machines could cause them to be declared illegal.

H3ll, the box that Grandview uses for retail placement in stores calls them "token redemption machines." I think they're on the right track.

Then again, sometimes I'm just full of it too. Just my .02.

-TW

[Utopia1dc]

TW-

You bring up several good points. But everything has become about the Almighty Dollar...Thus calling them Vegas style slots or similar wording draws more attention, hense more cash money, than token redemption machines, on Ebay. I agree that stuff like this could be the downfall of our beloved hobby...I hope NOT! :-(

[TeeDubya]

TW-

You bring up several good points. But everything has become about the Almighty Dollar...Thus calling them Vegas style slots or similar wording draws more attention, hense more cash money, than token redemption machines, on Ebay. I agree that stuff like this could be the downfall of our beloved hobby...I hope NOT! :-(

I hope not too, Utopia1. Unfortunately, 95% of people searching on eBay can't spell or pronounce "pachislo." Our hobby won't be the first one to get killed by overzealous sales tactics.

Next thing you know, we'll have to start a new forum section called How to Hide Your Illegal Machines Behind a False Wall.

-TW

[Bobby Bowling]

Next thing you know, we'll have to start a new forum section called How to Hide Your Illegal Machines Behind a False Wall.

I think I'll mod mine to payout candy bars. :smt025

[chief]

Greetings, especially to the NJ guys on board.

I've been reading your posts and I too question the legality of owning/selling Pachislo machines in NJ.

I've pasted some excerpts from NJ Statute 2C:37 below. What do you think?

2C:37-1. Definitions
The following definitions apply to this chapter and to chapter 64:

d. "Something of value" means any money or property, any token, object or article exchangeable for money or property, or any form of credit or promise directly or indirectly contemplating transfer of money or property or of any interest therein, or involving extension of a service, entertainment or a privilege of playing at a game or scheme without charge. This definition, however, does not include any form of promise involving extension of a privilege of playing at a game without charge on a mechanical or electronic amusement device, other than a slot machine as an award for the attainment of a certain score on that device.

e. "Gambling device" means any device, machine, paraphernalia or equipment which is used or usable in the playing phases of any gambling activity, whether such activity consists of gambling between persons or gambling by a person involving the playing of a machine. Notwithstanding the foregoing, lottery tickets, policy slips and other items used in the playing phases of lottery and policy schemes are not gambling devices.

f. "Slot machine" means any mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine which, upon insertion of a coin, token or similar object therein, or upon payment of any consideration whatsoever, is available to play or operate, the play or operation of which, whether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both, may deliver or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash or tokens to be exchanged for cash, whether the payoff is made automatically from the machine or in any other manner whatsoever. A device so constructed, or readily adaptable or convertible to such use, is no less a slot machine because it is not in working order or because some mechanical act of manipulation or repair is required to accomplish its adaptation, conversion or workability.

2C:37-7. Possession of a gambling device
A person except a player is guilty of possession of a gambling device when, with knowledge of the character thereof, he manufactures, sells, transports, places or possesses, or conducts or negotiates any transaction affecting or designed to affect ownership, custody or use of:

a. A slot machine; or

b. Any other gambling device, believing that the same is to be used in the advancement of unlawful gambling activity.
Possession of a gambling device other than under such circumstances as would constitute a violation of section 116 of the "Casino Control Act" (P.L.1977, c. 110; C. 5:12-1 et seq.) is a disorderly persons offense; provided, however, that possession of not more than one gambling device other than a slot machine for social use within the home shall not be an offense under this section; and provided further, however that possession of one or more antique slot machines shall not be an offense under this section or under section 116 of the "Casino Control Act" (P.L.1977, c. 110; C. 5:12-1 et seq.). As used in this section, "antique slot machine" means a slot machine which was manufactured prior to 1941. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the use of an antique slot machine for any unlawful purpose or for gaming....

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/New-Jersey/


Comments???

Walt

[TatooedLady]

the play or operation of which, whether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both, may deliver or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash or tokens to be exchanged for cash, whether the payoff is made automatically from the machine or in any other manner whatsoever. A device so constructed, or readily adaptable or convertible to such use, is no less a slot machine because it is not in working order or because some mechanical act of manipulation or repair is required to accomplish its adaptation, conversion or workability.

Well, now.....they don't leave ANYTHING to chance, do they? Doesn't matter if it's broken by age, by hammer.....or if you have NO clue how to convert to use quarters....it's illegal.....talk about fighting for gambling revenue! You can't play your slots in the safety/comfort of your own home, because you wouldn't be going BROKE in OUR setting....give us your money, or don't play!
:smt021 :smt014 :smt084 :smt062 :smt096 :smt075
Where's the LOVE?? :smt109 :smt116

[Bobby Bowling]

WOW! Those statutes look pretty solid on their surface. I'll dig into NJ case law and see what I can find there.

Thanks for the statutes; that'll certainly help my search.

[Bobby Bowling]

Sorry, but I wasn’t able to devote much time to researching case law today; however, I was able find one relevant NJ Supreme Court case. While it did not appear to offer much help, several other cases cited within it looked promising—sorry but I don’t have the citation handy to provide you, and I will not be returning here to post further findings due to the inhospitable environment fostered by some of the “respected” members. (I just don’t see the point of wasting my time.) Anyone with access to Lexis-Nexis or other legal search engines should be able to locate a good starting point by searching NJ case law for “stop and go machine.” Perhaps one of those “respected,” all-knowing members will offer their help.

Goodbye and good luck in the pursuit of your hobby.

[johntofva]

Wow, I am thankful that I live in Virginia.

[Brian]

Has anyone found out anymore information on this matter. I have personally bought a bunch of Pachislo's from Grandview Products recently and in 2006 without a problem. I asked them when I bought these machines and they have no clue what I am talking about that they can recall. Should I be worried?? I own a small bunch under 10.
I am beginning to hate this state.

[01PyTypeR#1140]

This just sucks! From what I gather I'm breaking the law. I love my machines but it looks like I will have to soon find a new hobby. Don't be surprised if you see my list of Pachislos shrinking till there's none left.:17: I'll miss this site but without any common interest there's little reason to visit much. Maybe I'll get back into hardcore performance driving.

[luckydog]

Just don't sell then on Craig's list!!!!!

[01PyTypeR#1140]

Just don't sell then on Craig's list!!!!!

Not that I would, but why not?

[dattia]

Apparently, it is closely monitored... That is how the member here from CA ended up in the court system.

[slotter]

Since 2005 when this discussion was going on, there hasn't been a lot of problems. I doubt if you are in violation of the law.

That said (as mentioned) don't push it and advertise on local Craig's lists, etc. You'll be fine and your machines will be, too.

[01PyTypeR#1140]

Since 2005 when this discussion was going on, there hasn't been a lot of problems. I doubt if you are in violation of the law.

That said (as mentioned) don't push it and advertise on local Craig's lists, etc. You'll be fine and your machines will be, too.

Thanks for the comfort, but I'm not so sure...Reading the law it doesn't look like I can own these machines in NJ in any shape, size or form. Is there some loop hole that I'm missing?