Poll - Skill Stop or Auto Stop

[d mowery]

It's OK to go back to talking about Pachislos ,we talked enough about the fat man in the red suit that sets on Arby chemly PS cant spell eather Don

[gwarzin]

Does "eye-shooting" make a difference all of the time, or just in certain situations. I find that concentrating on the reels while playing makes me tired after a while. Do you guys try to "hit it" it all the time, or do you just plod along like an auto-stop would?

It appears to me that during "normal" play it makes little difference. So I just hit the stops at random most of the time (thus giving my brain a rest). When the machine gives me a sign the a bonus is possible, then I concentrate and try to stop the reels on the 7s. That "sign" could be something obvious, like saying "Bonus" on an LCD. But sometime the machine just does something weird. If I don't understand what the machine is trying to tell me, I just assume there's a bonus chance and I pay attention to where I'm trying to stop the reels. (It can't hurt.)

I do know for a fact that, during some periods of play, I can stop the reels where I want to. Now, the 7's don't always stop "exactly" where I want them, but I get close. What I don't know for sure, is if the computer in there is actually letting me stop them entirely on my own, or is it still deciding the outcome based on a random number generator. It would be easy enough for the computer to make it look like I had control and still make me miss by one position (or force a win that I would have missed by one position.)

So, in some ways, it's still a bit of a mystery. Only the machine manufacturers know for sure.

[luckydog]

it looks like arby bulked up for the winter :lol:

it gets cold there in iowa.

i try eye shooting sometimes, on some machines you can do pretty good and others the reels move to fast.

one thing i have noticed is that i can read the fine print in the paper better, i have noline bifocals and always had trouble reading at certain angles.

pachislos have inproved my eyesight

[Tulsa]

I do know for a fact that, during some periods of play, I can stop the reels where I want to. Now, the 7's don't always stop "exactly" where I want them, but I get close. What I don't know for sure, is if the computer in there is actually letting me stop them entirely on my own, or is it still deciding the outcome based on a random number generator. It would be easy enough for the computer to make it look like I had control and still make me miss by one position (or force a win that I would have missed by one position.)

Isn't this what Gaku was referring to when he was talking about slipping the reels? The manufacturers have to stop the reels within four positions from where the button was pressed. It's not random number generation as you are still determining the point at which the four position possibility occurs. Sometimes it stops on exactly what you pressed and sometimes it's up to four positions away.

[RKnarr01]

yea that sounds like what he was referring to

[gwarzin]

It's not random number generation as you are still determining the point at which the four position possibility occurs. Sometimes it stops on exactly what you pressed and sometimes it's up to four positions away.

Could still be a random number generator. We do have some other examples of slot type machines to work with that we do know a little more about. These are the British Fruit Machines. People have made emulators that will run the actual ROM code. (Much like running arcade games on a MAME simulator.) Since on the emulator you can save the data, make a play, restore the data, and make the play again, you can learn a lot about what the internal software is doing. People have been able to determine that Fruit Machines make a decision as to whether or not you will win prior to your spinning the reels. It then forces the play to have an result that will match its predetermined outcome.

(This might not seem fair, but it really is. However, this is not the time to discuss that - unless you want to - as it is taking us off topic.)

So, on to Pachislos. If the manufacturer wants the outcome to match up with the odds they have set (rather than with the skill you may or may not have), then they could determine the outcome of any play by a random number generator in advance of your spin of the reels (just like Fruit Machines or even Las Vegas Slots do).

Now lets say the computer has already decided that you will not win. By pure skill you happen to hit 7s on reels 1 and 2. On reel 3, if you hit the stop button at exactly the right time, and should have won, the computer could still use that 4 positions of play to make sure you miss.

On the other hand, if it has determined (via the random number generator) that it is your turn to win, it could use the 4 positions of play on all 3 reels, to make sure you win if you are even reasonably close.

So, back to my original point. There really is no way to know how much skill is involved. I'd like to think that skill will indeed improve your pay back. But, it is possible to program the computer to simply pay off on the results of a random number generator, while still making it look like skill is involved.

I guess a real test would be to develop your "skills" and then try as hard has you can for 10,000 plays. Then just play at random for 10,000 plays and see if your winnings are any different.

I'd really love it if some group of Japanese pachislo enthusiasts would work up an emulator (and steal the ROM codes) just like the British have for the Fruit Machines. It would really open the doors to understanding how they worked.

[Tulsa]

From http://www.bigbearpachisloshop.com

A Secret of Reels

Pachislo machines are manufactured under strict regulations -- they are originally produced as gambling machines in Japan. (1) Reels must spin at less than 80 revolutions per minute, (2) reels must have symbols less than 21 (and symbols are less than seven kinds), and (3) a reel must stop within 0.19 second after the Reel Stop Button is pushed.

Most pachislo machines, therefore, have 21 symbols on each reel and spin the reels at 80 r.p.m. Importantly, they take advantage of the "0.19 second rule" and make the reels "slip." On the one hand, the machine makes the reels slip so that you don't hit a Regular or a Big Bonus, and on the other hand, it does it to let you win (see Notices and Small Rewards). The reel may "slip" four steps at most. See a chart below.

So you see by this text, it's not a random number generation at all. It's regulated. They must not spin faster than 80 rpm and must stop within 0.19 seconds after the button press. I suppose that it could be random between 0 and 0.19 seconds. That's as random as it appears they can be produced.

[RKnarr01]

thanks for pointing that out didnt know that

[gwarzin]

So you see by this text, it's not a random number generation at all. It's regulated. They must not spin faster than 80 rpm and must stop within 0.19 seconds after the button press. I suppose that it could be random between 0 and 0.19 seconds. That's as random as it appears they can be produced.

I don't think that one concept rules out the other. The regs say the reel must stop within 0.19 seconds after you push the stop button. It doesn't say what controls when it stops, within that time.

I'm not suggesting that where it stops within those 4 positions is random. I'm saying that it is possible for the computer to have determined the outcome (via a random number generator programmed with the odds set when the parlor sets the machine to 1-6) before you spin and then to carefully control where, within those 4 positions, the reels stop to try to force the outcome the random number generator wanted.

All that would still fit within the regulations. And, it's pretty much a fact that the pachislo already does this type of thing during the bonus round. It's almost impossible to miss getting 3 replays and collecting your 15 credits. So, the computer MUST be forcing that outcome.

So all I'm saying is that it could be applying the same techniques to forcing the outcome (within the 4 positions allowed) on every spin, not just the bonus games.

People in England were VERY surprised when then found out that this was exactly how their Fruit Machines worked. They always thought (and were led to believe by the manufacturers) that the outcome was controlled by the spin of the reels (or other random actions that occurred during the game). But they were wrong. Every since computer controlled Fruit Machines replaced the old purely mechanical machines, the outcomes have been determined by random number generator before the spin was even made - just like on modern Vegas slots and video poker machines.

[Tulsa]

Speaking of video poker, how in the heck do you win at those games? Anyone have a great theory or strategy behind it?

[RKnarr01]

i will usually play 1 credit then 3 credits then 5 credits and hope to hit something big on 3 or 5 credits and that usually will put me ahead some.

[Tulsa]

What machine is it your playing 5 credits on?

[RKnarr01]

you were talking about video poker right?

[gwarzin]

Speaking of video poker, how in the heck do you win at those games? Anyone have a great theory or strategy behind it?

There are some great computer programs out there that can show you how to win (or lose less) at video poker. I tried a free trial of one a few months ago. The name escapes me right now. But it had most of the popular machines in its database. And if it didn't have one, you could enter the entire payout table and it would create that machine.

It would tell you things like the best payout you could get with "perfect" play. Sometimes this was actually above 100% because the manufacturers know no one plays perfectly.

It would then either generate the hands, or you could enter any hand you want. Decide how you would have played that hand, and the computer would tell you how you should have played it.

[RKnarr01]

if you can think of the name PM me it because i play video poker at a local casino and lately have been getting killed

[gwarzin]

Found it. Video Poker Calculator by Gamblecraft. There's a free demo. The only limitation on the demo is that it won't work with video poker machines that have a payout of over 100%. So, if your idea is to lose less money, the demo is all you need. If you're lucky enough to find a machine that does payout over 100% and you want to make money, you'll have to buy the real version.

http://www.gamblecraft.com/soft/vpcalc/index.htm

[Tulsa]

Sorry Knarr, I was speaking about video poker. A few adult beverages later though... :smt102

Thanks Gary, I'll check that one out. I don't play a lot at the local casinos but on my palm pilot, in the bathroom, it's awesome! :wink:

[RKnarr01]

i was referring to video poker i usually play the lowest limit then middle limit then highest limit and just hope to hit something when im playing max credits to get my bankroll up there

[RKnarr01]

if you were to use the video poker coach on a palm pilot at a casino and they saw you would they kick you out do you think

[Tulsa]

if you were to use the video poker coach on a palm pilot at a casino and they saw you would they kick you out do you think

Just as fast as you can whip it out, they'll whip you out!