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Thread: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame or others...

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    Sandwich Shooter ocpachinko's Avatar
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    Default Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    I was curious if anyone has tried connecting quality multi-way speakers to a Lumina frame. I catch myself wondering if the soundtracks will sound less harsh with them, and before I experiment I thought I'd ask the audiophiles here if they've tried any types in particular...

    Thanks!
    [D] means [developement] [doramatic] [demention] and [design]

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    Crippenese spoken here. drcrippen324's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    iv never tried it but as far as i can see as long as the speakers are the 8 ohms that the lumina fame uses and man enough to take teh power then not a problem but make sure the frames speakers are disconected or you will have too much resistance with 2 sets of speakers
    My rice krispies told me to do it



    please note pachitalk.com cannot be held responsible for any injuries or death that occur as a results of anything strange people like me suggest you do

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    Winnipeg Pachinko Correspondent dishpan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    My guess is that there is some very sophisticated engineering behind these sound systems. They look cheap and simple on the surface but I'd guess that everything is carefully engineered and selected to provide the sound quality and punch that they do.

    These small speakers, without any crossover network that I can see, provide very credible base frequencies as well as the highs. The tone and clarity on my newer un-modified units is actually very good. Some manufacturers are better than others though.

    Any speakers that I've modified with pots or resistors add a noticable distortion and also mask some of the sound.
    If you haven't grown up by age 50 ... you don't have to!



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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    The amplifier used in a Lumina frame is a Sanyo LA4625 two channel 13.5W bridge tied load audio amplifier chip. From the datasheet it doesn't look like there's anything special about it as an amplifier. Perhaps the audio is effectively preprocessed before it leaves the sound CPU to match it to the range of the speakers.

    This amplifier is capable of driving 13.5W into a 4 ohm speaker, the datasheet doesn't mention the maximum power into 8 ohm, but it should be over 7W per channel. As this is higher than the ratings of the lumina frame speakers, the maximum output power is probably limited by attenuating the signal before the audio enters the amp.

    When connecting external speakers, if they are lower impedance than the stock 8 ohm speakers (or if connecting a second set of speakers while leaving the original ones connected), make sure the volume control switch is set to the low/medium position. Lower impedance speakers will increase the output power at a given volume switch setting, and while the amplifier may be rated at 13.5W the power supply and the heatsink on the amplifier will probably only be adequate for the lower power levels the system was designed for.

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    Kungishi fronzdan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    How about grabbing it at the pre-amp stage and feeding it into a powered set of speakers or a receiver?

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    Sandwich Shooter ocpachinko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Daverob, thanks again...dishpan, my curiosity comes from what I feel is the excessive midrange emphasis of the speakers; while there's some bass, there's only so much you can do with that size...my hope is that all the bass isn't cut before the amp (or indeed, in the recording). Having been in the parlors in Japan, bass is often irrelevant with the ball thunder (which is why other frame types with better bass and a more balanced sound, i.e. newer Daiichi and Heiwa frames are surprising).

    It seems very clear that my Lumina cell collection will be growing, and the Julie soundtrack seems like it may benefit from a better speaker, so that's the motivation here.

    Fronzdan, getting it at the preamp is also intriguing (opening the door to using one of the excellent value speaker systems designed for computers); that may be part two. I don't know where those lines would be (apologies if it has been posted) but that may turn out to be worthy of investigation. But the on-board amp seems like it should be plenty powerful for a first try.
    [D] means [developement] [doramatic] [demention] and [design]

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    Pachi Puro slothappy144's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    I have used force transducers in past vehicle installations, (bass shakers) I think these mounted solidly to the cabinet would open up a whole new level of the experience, without added a deafening noise. Be sure to foam tape around the glass or the rattling would be distracting. Never tried it but I do have some takeouts from my last vehicle. Oh no not another experiment.
    Cheers,
    Mike G
    Mikes Woodshop click on my game room link at bottom of page

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    wearing a suit birdbrain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    they would beat the computer boards apart!!


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    Pachi Puro slothappy144's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Quote Originally Posted by birdbrain View Post
    they would beat the computer boards apart!!
    AW come on BB! these are built like tanks!! a little rocking would not harm them. I think the explosions during a reach on Garfield would be a good thing to accentuate! Now the 'I feel like dancing" tune does not need to be any louder. bleck.
    Cheers,
    Mike G
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    Goodwill Ambassador luckydog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    why not hook up your 5.1 home theater system to your pachinkos for surrond sound!!!

    It should sound awesome playing Star Wars

    and you won't hear the balls bouncing around
    幸運わんわん Luckydog or Yukiwanwan in Japanese

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Quote Originally Posted by ocpachinko View Post
    Fronzdan, getting it at the preamp is also intriguing (opening the door to using one of the excellent value speaker systems designed for computers); that may be part two. I don't know where those lines would be (apologies if it has been posted) but that may turn out to be worthy of investigation.
    I don't think this has been posted before. So here it is, just to make sure that the information is archived here before I lose the notes I made the other day about the Lumina audio amp.

    The audio leaves the Yamaha sound CPU (IC1) on pins 23 and 24, is attenuated by a pair of potential dividers made by R14,R15(20k) and R5,R6(1k5) R5,R6 is the ground end of the potential divider. The centre point of the potential divider is fed via C11,C12 to the amplifier chip on pins 1 and 6.

    The volume control switches resistors in parallel with R5,R6 to increase the attenuation for different volume levels. These are R9,R10(5k6) in medium position or R7,R8(1k8) in quiet position.

    Everything else in the audio path pretty much follows the example connection diagram on the LA4625 datasheet.

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    Thread Killer musky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Thanks Daverob for all the techie info. We need to start putting this stuff in it's own stickie. Very useful info indeed.
    Pachislos: Alien, Azteca Returns, Death Valley, Guts, Gamera HGV, Hokuto No Ken, Jet Set Radio, Mephisto, Oasis, Speed Racer, Surprise, Twenty Seven, Thunderbirds, Wild Wolf
    Pachinkos: Blooming Field, Casino, Freddy vs Jason, Horror Mansion, Indiana Jones, Julie, Lucky Boat of Seven God, Popeye, Spiderman

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    Blind Shooter Berzerk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Quote Originally Posted by daverob View Post
    The audio leaves the Yamaha sound CPU (IC1) on pins 23 and 24, is attenuated by a pair of potential dividers made by R14,R15(20k) and R5,R6(1k5) R5,R6 is the ground end of the potential divider. The centre point of the potential divider is fed via C11,C12 to the amplifier chip on pins 1 and 6.

    The volume control switches resistors in parallel with R5,R6 to increase the attenuation for different volume levels. These are R9,R10(5k6) in medium position or R7,R8(1k8) in quiet position.
    Hi Daverob,

    since I'm not really statisfied with the "potentiomenter in in the speaker wire" solution for volume control, I'm looking for another solution.

    So are you saying above, that the signal that goes through R5, R6 is the "not amplified" signal, so to say the pre-out signal? Than wouldn't it be a proper solution to replace r5, r6 with a stereo potentiometer and leave the volume switch in the "loud" position (in the r5,r6 only position)?

    Also you mention above the R5, R6 is 1k5. For medium you switch r9, r10 (5k6) in parallel; for quiet you switch r7, r8 (1k8) in parallel?

    1k5 and 5k6 parallel is about 1k1
    1k5 and 1k8 parallel is about 818

    so with r7, r8 in parallel it sould be loudest, r9, r10 medium and only r5, r6 sould be quiet... is that right (you wrote r7, r8 is quiet)? I'm asking because I'm not sure, since I have only basic electronic skills form pinball repairing.

    Thanks in advance for helping.

    Berzerk

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others..

    Quote Originally Posted by Berzerk View Post
    So are you saying above, that the signal that goes through R5, R6 is the "not amplified" signal, so to say the pre-out signal?
    That is correct.

    Than wouldn't it be a proper solution to replace r5, r6 with a stereo potentiometer and leave the volume switch in the "loud" position (in the r5,r6 only position)?
    You could do it by fitting a stereo potentiometer across r5,r6, but you must not remove r5 or r6 as they set the maximum volume for the amp, and would cause the amps inputs to be overloaded if the potentiometer or it's connections were damaged, potentially causing damage to the amp/speakers. I'd recommend using a 10k stereo pot across these resistors, the maximum volume level would be slightly reduced, but you should get a good range of adjustment. A 5k (or 2k) stereo pot would also work and give a finer adjustment at the expense of lower maximum volume.

    so with r7, r8 in parallel it sould be loudest, r9, r10 medium and only r5, r6 sould be quiet...
    This is incorrect, these resistors are used in a potential divider to attenuate the signal, so smaller resistance values will result in lower volume levels (ie what I originally wrote is correct!).
    Last edited by daverob; 03-11-2010 at 09:38 AM.

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    Blind Shooter Berzerk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    Ah... never heard about voltage dividers before, but I read it on Wikipedia now and understood.

    Thanks,

    Berzerk

    PS: I just removed the the potentiometers on the speakers and I was really shocked... This is THE loudest thing I ever heard... If that is the volume setting in the parlor, you are deaf after one hour of play... unbelievable...
    Last edited by Berzerk; 03-11-2010 at 10:33 AM. Reason: shocked

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    Blind Shooter Berzerk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    Daverob,

    I seem to have a completely different Board revision than you have... can you confirm that by the pictures?

    If so, do you have any instructions or at least an idea, what the aquivalent of r5, r6 might be on this board?

    Thank you,

    Berzerk
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Pachi Puro Lazarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    I must say that there are many members here that contribute a lot to this forum. Daverob you are definitely one of those people! The amount of technical info you add has been a great help with these machines. Even to people like me who read every word but say to our selfs, I'm not understanding this but good thing that there is someone like Daverob to find and post this!

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Berzerk View Post
    If so, do you have any instructions or at least an idea, what the aquivalent of r5, r6 might be on this board?
    I can't see enough detail in those photos to be able to find the equivalent of r5 and r6 (and I don't have any lumina machines with the same sound board as that).

    But I can see that the four resistors on the back of the board by the switch (R26-29) are the equivalents of R7-10, so if you wanted to add a line level volume control pot, then you can access the necessary connections on the back of the switch.

    volume.jpg

    In this picture connect the centre wiper contacts of the stereo pot to the pins marked 'L' and 'R' (I don't know if they are correctly marked for left and right or swapped, but it won't matter with a stereo pot ), and the potentiometer anti-clockwise end contacts to GND.

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    Blind Shooter Berzerk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    OK,

    i did it on two machines. 5k is more than enough, i might go and try 2k tomorrow. Good thing is: I have an outside volume control now. Is the sound better? Absolutely, as much as after your healthier after an orgon ray therapy :-)

    I think the sound is not as much disorting anymore, I must do more tests tomorrow. Downside is, that I hear more static (all the lamps) more through the speaker than before (independent from the volume).

    Do think it would help to connect the green "Earth" cable inside the machine to the earth of the wall plug?

    Thanks,

    Berzerk

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    Master Inventor daverob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using External Speakers with a Lumina Frame (or others...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Berzerk View Post
    Downside is, that I hear more static (all the lamps) more through the speaker than before (independent from the volume).
    The speaker noise that coincides with the pulsing of the lamps is normal. The circuit board with the audio amp on it also supplies power to the circuit that controls the frame lights and inevitably noise from the lamp circuit leaks through to the audio side.

    When you use external volume controls in line with the speakers, they will also quieten down this noise, if you use volume controls at the pre-amp stage, then this noise will not be attenuated and may become a lot more noticable at lower volume settings. This isn't a problem in the pachinko parlours as it just gets lost in the background noise.

    The green earth lead is just to remove any static charges on the balls that they may have picked up in the parlours ball distribution equipment. It doesn't have any electrical connection to the control circuits in the pachinko machine, and won't do anything about any audio noise or distortions.

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