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Thread: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

  1. #21
    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    So, did you remove R2, R4 and R6?

    I spoke to my supplier today and he waffled on about 'Current Limiting Resistors'.

    Apparantly, since the board is designed for Red, Green and Blue the resisters are there to 'match' the power to the colour of LED. When you change to white (which has completely different electronic characteristics) you need to change the resistors in accordance ot Ohms Law in order to continue to limit the current.

    I have an electronics genuius at work.. I am going to work with him to decide exactly whats needed in order to drive the LEDs correctly to get a near lifetime worth of functionality out of them.

    Jon

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    Sandwich Shooter chaz70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Yes, the empty spots had resistors there that were removed.

    (Ask Mark if you don't believe me.)

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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Quote Originally Posted by jweaver
    So, did you remove R2, R4 and R6?

    I spoke to my supplier today and he waffled on about 'Current Limiting Resistors'.

    Apparantly, since the board is designed for Red, Green and Blue the resisters are there to 'match' the power to the colour of LED. When you change to white (which has completely different electronic characteristics) you need to change the resistors in accordance ot Ohms Law in order to continue to limit the current.

    I have an electronics genuius at work.. I am going to work with him to decide exactly whats needed in order to drive the LEDs correctly to get a near lifetime worth of functionality out of them.

    Jon
    When you switch to the white LEDs you only need one limiting resistor and it needs to be of a value to produce the min/max specifications for the voltage and amperage supplied to the LED. That's why we tested it thoroughly and were confident (and happy) that the existing 750 Ohm resistor the 820 Ohm resistor is removed because of the configurations of the pins on the Pirhana/Superflux, it would supply two voltages and over power the LED. The two white LEDs are in series so only one limitign resistor is being used per pair.

    With three LEDs in an RGB you normally need 3 limiting resistors, except that in this sircuit (and the diagram is on this sight in the same trheads as well), the two Blue LEDs are in series on one limiting resistor (820 Ohm) and the REd and Green are in series together on the 750 (which all together produced the white that the original engineers were looking for). We got lucky that the 820 is about right to power two white superfluxes in series within it's operating parameters (which by the way are much more "hardy" than the kingbrights and accept a wider range of current).

    Although your supplier is right, we worked this out already, so you're overthinking it a bit now (and not searching the forum enough perhaps, since the answer is laid out in great detail on this site), but more power to you, knowledge is king.

    Yes, the Pirhanas and Superfluxes are the same, and generally all within the same specifications (or close). The actual degress viewing angle on the superfluxes is a bit more, but the 100 degrees was the effective angle used for measuring intensities. And you are using the same formula source for converting mcd to lm as I was.
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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Cheers.. So, am I right in thinking that you leave 3 Resitors and remove the others as per Chaz's post above?

    I am still tempted by the 2000-3000mcd ones.. The guy who sells the 1200 version hasn't been a lot of help as he doesn't actually stock them.. But the one selling the 2000-3000 ones have them in stock right now!

    Thanks for all your help with this.. Its much appreciated

    Jon

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Actually, just going back in my notes a bit, the optimal forward current on the Superflux/Pirahna types we were using (some differ) was about 20 mA. That means the optimal resistor would be about 1k for the two in series. I tried that and really they needed a bit more luminosity to blend better with the originals, so using the existing 750 ohm resisters (which are a good power handling type) we get about 27mA Peak forward current (the absolute maximum for the led is 30mA). So we're overdriving them a bit - but these are hardy lads. I've only had one fail since doing the original install.

    I also tested 680 ohm resistors (bringing the current up really close to max) but really not much more intensity and I was suspicious that the led was being stressed and the circuit was likely struggling with heat/power dissapation as well.

    So in the end, leaving in the 750 Ohm resistors really accomplished two goals, it brought these LEDs intensity up just a little and saves the cost (and labour) of replacing 9 of them per machine (remember 1/4 10% resistors won't due here, the originals were 2Ws each, although 1Watts will do here).

    I hope this helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by jweaver
    Cheers.. So, am I right in thinking that you leave 3 Resitors and remove the others as per Chaz's post above?

    I am still tempted by the 2000-3000mcd ones.. The guy who sells the 1200 version hasn't been a lot of help as he doesn't actually stock them.. But the one selling the 2000-3000 ones have them in stock right now!

    Thanks for all your help with this.. Its much appreciated

    Jon
    Also, given the same considerations regarding doing the math for the forward current / voltage and power dissipation, a 2000 mcd replacement would potentially be an even better match for the orignal LEDs since I detected (without measurement) that the originals are a bit brighter (well, actually they sit lower on the PCB so they likely are brighter and throw their light more evenly over a wider viewing angle (if the Superfluxes could sit lower than the stand-offs they come with they would throw a better angle as well). At the time, I couldn't source anything brighter that had the same viewing angle of 100 degrees or more. The original kingbrights have an optimal viewing angle of about 100 degrees, but as I said, they sit lower and more flush with the PCB so their angle is more effective in illuminating the whole surface of the reel evenly.

    In practice and once the replacement is done, you hardly will ever notice the difference.

    There was one other less than ideal characteristic of the replacement Superlux/Pirhana's, they throw a whiter, bluer light than the originals (which are a bit more yellow/red colour balanced). The net effect of this is that "eye shooting" the replacements (or at least the quality of the light through certain colours on the reel) is changed slightly - if you look closely at a replacement next to a working original, you can see the difference (it's illustrated in pics on this site in the original thread http://www.pachitalk.com/forums/show...el+fix+pirhana

    And once again, the eye shooting is still accomplishable.

    We were thinking of throwing a class action suit against Aruze / Eleco for all of this pain and suffering, but really, I don't want to have the Yakuza knocking at my door.

    One last little tid bit. Although I got to test Kingbright AAF5060PBESEEVG's as a replacement, they were too blue in character and not the direct replacement. I tried and tried and tried to find a supplier for Kingbright AAF5060PBESURVG's which are a little more Red balanced to see if they were a closer replacement (the original Kingbrights were probably a custom run, all LED manufacturers will run custom specs for orders in the 100's of thousands). Given that I had to order at least 200 or more just to test, and given their high cost, settling on the Superfluxes (which should last longer too), seemed like a smart move.
    Last edited by websherpa; 07-13-2006 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Thanks for the info.. My supplier is sending me 3 boards and I am going to use the 'faulty ones' in my Sapp, to test with.

    I will order some of the 2000mcds today and will do some experiments soon. I will then post some photos of my findings.

    I don't mind if they are brighter or a different colour.. Its not like I have had my Sapp very long and am not used to it yet, so changing the LEDs now is and ideal time.

    Many thanks for everyones help.

    All the best

    Jon

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    Kungishi fronzdan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I'll just add that "Superflux" isn't a brand name. It's a packaging style/layout for LEDs....one which allows better angle and optimal brightness. So when you see "Superflux LED" it really just means you are looking at the 4-pin, all-clear package. A bunch of companies are making them now....they are what car companies use for LED brake lights etc.

    It sure seems like Europe has more places to buy these things! You've found quite a few. I think the 2000-3000 mcd ones should work out fine. You can use the same resistors/circuit and should get a bit more brightness. Since you'll be running on the lower end of their mcd vs current curve, you won't be getting close to the 3000 mcd though. But they'll look fantastic.

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Cool.. I have ordered them and they are on the way.. £4.60 for 20 (inc shipping), which is less than $10

    Once I have confirmed that this is the way forwards, I have offered to fix my suppliers 'stash' of faulty boards.. I might be busy for the next few months

    Jon

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    My bad , I just checked again (it's been a while since I did one), it's the 750 Ohm resistors that get removed from the circuit and the replacement Superflux?pirhanas run off the 820 Ohm resistors in the circuit. So you remove resistors R2, R4, and R6. The reason being that if you remove the 820 Ohm resistors, then you have to jumper the LED leads all over the place because the SUperfluxes have 4 standoffs for only two diodes (2 leads per diode) and when you seat them in the 6 pin sockets for the original Kingbrights.... well, you'ld have to follow the circuit diagram that Fronzdan posted, it's very helpful.
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Hmm. So now I am officially confused.. I havn't seen the "circuit diagram", only the pics of the boards.

    I have been told the LEDs will be here on Saturday.. if I get time, i might be able to get one done and then back in the machine straight away, so that I can do some side-by-side comparisons!

    Jon

    Edit:: Wait.. I think I understand what you are saying.. Bascially you are saying that you should leave R1,3 & 5 behind, because IF you didn't, then you would have to jumper the LEDs... If the 820 Ohm ones are a better match, then why not simply remove ALL of the Resitors and move the ones from R2,4 and 6 to 1,3 & 5?

    What I don't understand its WHY you have to remove them at all.. If these LEDs feed the legs which are no longer connected, then why remove them?

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    In case anyone's interested, Milt at Stealth Home Amusement http://www.stealthhomeamusement.com/hanabihyakei.htmlhas a HAnabi Hyakkei (Hanabi Hyakei) in the Scratch and Dent area for only $69.95 that just needs new LEDs. It's a great machine if you like Japanese theme and eye shooting, and if you're handy with a soldering iron, a good deal too!
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Quote Originally Posted by jweaver
    Hmm. So now I am officially confused.. I havn't seen the "circuit diagram", only the pics of the boards.
    Join the club. The schematic is here: http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?i...llights4ig.jpg

    It's a diagram of the ORIGINAL circuit though, not the replacement one.

    You're best to go back to the very beginning of this thread (it's 3 pages long) and read right through, it will give you most of the answers you seek grasshopper: http://www.pachitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7734


    Edit:: Wait.. I think I understand what you are saying.. Bascially you are saying that you should leave R1,3 & 5 behind, because IF you didn't, then you would have to jumper the LEDs... If the 820 Ohm ones are a better match, then why not simply remove ALL of the Resitors and move the ones from R2,4 and 6 to 1,3 & 5?

    What I don't understand its WHY you have to remove them at all.. If these LEDs feed the legs which are no longer connected, then why remove them?
    Not quite. If you don't remove the R2, R4 & R6 because the replacement LEDs have 4 leads (instead of the regular 2) and in fact 3 of the 4 would be in the circuit, you will actually end up having two separate voltages feeding (and basically overfeeding) current to the resistors because of the way the original 6 pin RGB LEDs were configured. I did it that way originally until I realized I was overtaxing the LED with too much voltage/current. We're cheating the circuit a bit here to hammer the replacements into a space they shouldn't go, and it's only serendipidous that it actually works with the 4 lead Superfluxes at all.

    The only reason the Superfluxes have 4 leads (since there is only 1 diode, and only 2 poles, one cathode, one anode) is to provide support and thermal conduction to help cool the diode.

    Jumpering the circuit board would only be required if you clipped the 820's and left the 750's because the leds wouldn't be connected in series then (the circuit would be broken) - but really, unless you understand the circuit, forget I even mentioned that, it's irrelevant and confusing.
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    veneratio million deus Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    When I was replacing my Sinbad LEDS with the White Piranahs I noticed that you had to spread the arms to get them into the board, but once they were lined up they fit very nice and snug. I thought that since they fit so tight I plugged the board in to see if they would light and yes they did. I went on to solder them in place to finish the intsallation.
    Now what would have been wrong not soldering them in ? Can that have been ok? They were in tight and were not going anywhere as far as I could tell. I really didnt see that the reels or machine vibrated enough to dislodge them and if they could be installed without the final solder I think many members here could replace their own without any worries about their soldering skills. Is this just a stupid idea? Lets have the opinions!
    Led Zepplin

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Not stupid, I noticed the same thing, but risky. You have to take out the iron to desolder anyway, so why not solder them in?

    But actually there is quite a bit of vibration and heat that could distort the leads over time, not to mention that they will attract stuff from the air electronically that could help isolate them from the board, and also there's no guarantee that the solder points in the pcb board were not damaged during de-soldering (I lost one this way - luckily the board is two sided).

    In any case, to save yourself the headache of another failure due to unknown causes, I think the safe thing to do would be to solder them in. And if you know how to desolder then that is a harder skill to master than soldering...IMHO
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  18. #35
    veneratio million deus Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    OK all you just heard from the master!!!!!!! Any other experts have any thoughts?

    Let me just say that Websherpa and Fronzdans knowledge of LEDs from their hard and detailed work, is what we all have at our fingertips as a real gift.
    Much Thanks to them.
    Led Zepplin

  19. #36
    Sandwich Shooter chaz70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I agree Eddie. I can't express enough how grateful I am for this fix with the Eleco machines. My slightly different Sinbad machine is the pride of my collection and having those nice LEDs in there, working, is just awesome.

    (Ask Mark if you don't believe me.)

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    Blind Shooter Harleybum's Avatar
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    Default Re: White LEDs, Continued

    After reading all about this in here, I checked my Sinbad.....
    Found the same thing you guys did. Reel 1 was yellow,blue,yellow.
    Reel 2 was all yellow and reel 3 was all white.Since reel 3 is working I can use it to measure the current they drive them at before the modification.
    I checked with a local supplier here www.allelectronics.com
    Look at their site and see the part number LED-75. Rated at 5 volts, 20 Ma. of current for 3000mcd. They claim they are "Wide Angle". I will be near one of their stores and will buy a set of nine of them. Cost is $2.00 each.
    I checked "Popeye" and it has White LED's in it..LOTS of them in small clusters.
    Also checked Neo-PlanetT and it too has a lot of them in small clusters.
    I will share the info when I get them (if they are in stock) next week.

    H.B.

  21. #38
    veneratio million deus Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Can this work on the Piranahs? Or the knightbrights ? Would be nice to see if they are good or bad from the boards before throwing them out.
    LED TESTER
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    Pocket-size led tester. Makes it easy to check functionality, color, brightness and uniformity. Plug any leaded LED into one of 12 positions on the socket strip to test at current ratings from 2-50ma. The seven middle positions on the strip are set at 10 mA allowing comparison of LEDs in those spaces. Requires 9 v battery (not included).
    CAT# LT-100
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    Led Zepplin

  22. #39
    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: White LEDs, Continued

    Quote Originally Posted by Harleybum
    \Since reel 3 is working I can use it to measure the current they drive them at before the modification.
    Problem here is that you have three sepearate diodes to measure, remember they are RGB and we're replacing with a single. THe spec sheets of replacement LEDs give the optimum and maximum forward current, and using a formula that takes into account the driving current (24v), that's how you determine the limiting resistor to drive the new LED. A lower resistor will give you a brighter output, but if you go too far, the life of the LED will be severeal shortened.

    I checked with a local supplier here www.allelectronics.com
    Look at their site and see the part number LED-75. Rated at 5 volts, 20 Ma. of current for 3000mcd. They claim they are "Wide Angle".
    Don't waste your time here, we've been down this route before, you should see the collection of LEDs I have now (wish they were a colour other than white...), But in any case, if you look at the spec sheet they give, it lists the viewing angle at only 15 degrees (which is wide in terms of epoxy incapsulated T1 5mm LEDs). What you need is closer to 200 degress (Ultra Wide) effective viewing angle (and even at that if the standoffs or LED enclosure lifts the diode off the PCB (as it does on the Pirhanas/Superfluxes) then it reduces your effective angle (the down side of which is that the light doesn't catch the lip of the Reel's "surround collar" (for lack of a better term) so it doesn't throw as nicely defined a sharp edge to edge light as the original Kingbright type did. However, after a day or two you stop noticing this (unless you're a Type - "Double A" Ipersonality like me.

    Edit: Also, if you look closely at my and Fronzdan's notes, you'll see in addition to testing all sorts of close candidates, we tried doubling up the LEDs to give a wider viewing angle, and also sanded down the lenses to approximate flat cone lense type enclosure (I didn't try an inverted cone enclosure which gives a very wide viewing angle as these weren't readily available cheap). None of these worked anywhere near as well as the Superflux / Pirhanas (and they're available at $1 or less per item in quanitity).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    Can this work on the Piranahs? Or the knightbrights ? Would be nice to see if they are good or bad from the boards before throwing them out.
    LED TESTER
    Larger Picture Available

    Pocket-size led tester. Makes it easy to check functionality, color, brightness and uniformity. Plug any leaded LED into one of 12 positions on the socket strip to test at current ratings from 2-50ma. The seven middle positions on the strip are set at 10 mA allowing comparison of LEDs in those spaces. Requires 9 v battery (not included).
    CAT# LT-100
    No it won't work for either of them directly (because of the pin configuration), but I suppose you could jam in some test leads clipped to the LED leads and go from there. It's overkill though. I simply used a perfboard, a 24DV 600ma transformer, some perf board wires, a potentiometer or two (to simulate and adjust for different current limiting resistors). This gives you the ability to set up a duplicate circuit to the orginal board to test the LEDS (though for the Kingbrights you have to test individually since they are in series), to find the optimum CLResistance which gives you the desired light output and then test the driving current to make sure it's not overdriving the LED.

    What I did was set up a working Kingbright circuit with my test LEDs, then I used a piece of opaque white paper over them to judge the difference in colour, intensity and angle. I think there's some picutres of the set-up in previous threads.

    I hope this helps. Anyone is absolutely encouraged to duplicate the tests and come up with a cheaper or reasonable better replacement - and please let me know - I just wanted to help you waste time travelling down the dead ends we experienced in the weeks of testing, waiting for new LEDs to arrive, and expense.
    Last edited by websherpa; 07-14-2006 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    Kungishi fronzdan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    When I was replacing my Sinbad LEDS with the White Piranahs I noticed that you had to spread the arms to get them into the board, but once they were lined up they fit very nice and snug. I thought that since they fit so tight I plugged the board in to see if they would light and yes they did. I went on to solder them in place to finish the intsallation.
    It might work, but I think after a while they loosen up on you and you'd get intermittents....or worse, one would fall out and go tumbling around inside the reel like clothes in a dryer. Besides, soldering the Piranha IN is the easy part. It's getting those damn Kingbrights out that's a pain. When doing this, sometimes it's easier to just cut them out and desolder the each pin individually. And like I said on the other threads...use solder-wick!!!


    Yeah, HB, you really won't find any of the standard 2-lead LEDs with a wide enough angle that is at the same time bright enough. LOL, I still have one board in my Hanabi that has the 2-LED experiment in it. I mounted two lower angle LEDs side-by-side in hopes that their patterns would overlap enough to make it appear like something 120 degrees. Think of how they simulate the binocular view in movies and you'll know what it looks like.

    As for testing...I chucked out any Kingbright I have. The used ones aren't worth testing, they stop working if you look at them funny. For testing anything else, I just use a DC power supply and some clip leads. With that, you can test them right on the board. A decent DC supply is always a good thing to have....proto board too.

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