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Thread: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I have had my Beast Sapp for about a week, but havn't had chance to play it much.

    I did notice that with the door open (and therefore the reels not covered by the LCD) the centre reel looked a different colour.

    Tonight I won my first bonus and coudl see that the centre reel wasn't the same as the others.. After looking closely, I can see that each reel has 3 LEDs behind it, and 2 of them behind the middle reel are yellow, where as the rest are White.

    Looking closely at the LEDs, most appear to have a Red, Green and Blue element to them, where as the ones which are yellow, don't seem to have any Blue.

    I was already aware that this was a common problem on some machines.. is this the case on Beast Sapp? If so, is it easy to fix?

    I have asked my supplier for help, since I have only just bought the machine, btu if they say its 'wear and tear', what are my options?

    Jon

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    Sparky RKnarr01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    i believer there was a member who had a way or could fix this problem, but it seems to be common.

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Sorry.. After doing a search, I found the info I need.. A lot of information to digest, but alteast there are others with the same problem.

    Hopefully I will be able to source the same LEDs in the UK and will get them fixed.. Or perhaps my supplier may be able to help

    Either way, I will get it fixed.

    Cheers

    Jon

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I helped out jweaver where I could, unfortunately I am not supplying the LEDs anymore, but they are still available Stateside, search for "Eleco Reel Replacement".

    I would be interested to hear what the supplier says. I did an informal poll of most of the suppliers when I was looking for spare junk reel boards to fix up for members. No one kept them at the time not knowing there was a fix. I keep seeing Eleco machines with burnt out lights and I imagine the majority of buyers never notice or accept it as is. Even when I did get replacements from my supplier (they sent me a whole new machine, and let me keep both) the replacement had reel leds which failed immediately.
    Wayne ウェイン :rambo:
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    Sandwich Shooter chaz70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    This is a very common thing with these Eleco machines. (It must be)
    My cousin got a Hanabi Hyakkei (Fireworks) from Stealth about a week ago.

    All 3 reels, the lights are so dim you cant see them while playing. I offered to replace the lights with the Pirahna lights for him if he buys them.

    When I took my Sinbad back to a local vendor to get working reel lights, the replaced ones lasted only a couple weeks before they started going bad like the ones I had previously. I replaced them with the Pirahna lights and they are beautiful and still working after a few months.

    (Ask Mark if you don't believe me.)

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    Thread Killer musky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Are these 100 volt machines running on 117?
    Pachislos: Alien, Azteca Returns, Death Valley, Guts, Gamera HGV, Hokuto No Ken, Jet Set Radio, Mephisto, Oasis, Speed Racer, Surprise, Twenty Seven, Thunderbirds, Wild Wolf
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    wearing a suit birdbrain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    AHHH ! that explains a lot


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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    We've been through this. The Eleco's don't use 24v transformers, they have regulated power supplies like computers, and in fact Japanese voltage is very similar to Canadian voltage, the difference shouldn't matter, and the volt/amp readings at the LED were in the ranges they should be.

    After much research and experimentation we discovered that the fault lies in the LED itself. It was a new type of full spectrum Kingbright type where they use a lens that is glued to unit containing the led, because the led is not enclosed in plastic, the glue eventually fails due to heat expansion/contraction and humidity/exposure eventually kills the diode. We discovered this because reseating the lens and pushing down on it would cause most of the defective LEDs to light again. However no one was succesful in regluing the lens. The benefit to these LEDs are that they have a full white spectrum (which is how they are used in Elecos, even though they can generate colours), and they have a very high angle at a decent intensity. It was very hard to match them as they appeared to be a custom run from the manufacturer (which would never acknowledge the defect, I couldn't pin point the supplier). In the end a Pirhana type white LED was the best match (since it has wide angle at a decent intensity and white), though not as uniformly wide and bright as the originals (since they sit up higher on the PCB).
    Wayne ウェイン :rambo:
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    Kungishi fronzdan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    It is indeed a common, pretty much inevitable problem with the Eleco machines. Or more accurately, it's a problem with the Kingbright RGB LEDs they used, as Wayne said. My new Sinbad came with a mix of dim/off-color/dead LEDs like the others. That's 3 for 3 now. I quickly replaced them with a spare set of boards I had built up with Piranhas.

    This is definitely the way to go. Don't even bother looking for alternatives, we looked/tried....there really isn't anything better.

    Too bad, I just ordered another batch of 18 from Quickar a couple weeks ago, to build up another set to replace my spares. I could have ordered an extra 18 and sent them off to you, jweaver. It's a very simple fix as long as you can solder....or more importantly desolder.

    Speaking of Elecos with bad reel lights.....Milt is sellilng a Hanabi machine in his scratch and dent section for $70. The only thing wrong with it is the LED boards. For another 20 bucks and a little work, you can fix that baby up to work good as new!

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    It actually worse than I thought.. My supplier has offered to send me some new boards, so I went home to have a closer look.

    It turns out that one board is fine (6xwhites)..

    The board that I said had 2xyellows, actually has 4xyellows (2 pairs).. BUT.. At lunch time, when I switched it on, the last pair have actually gone too.. So its 6xyellow.. 2 more blown since i spotted the problem? Surely more than a co-incidence.

    The 3rd board has 2 blues..


    The weird thing is that all of the 'bad' lights appear to be in pairs. (i.e the top, middle or bottom pair).. This surely indicates something more than just failed LEDs.. Of course, this could be a co-incidence!


    Fortunatly, there are 4 good LEDs on the right board, so atleast I now have some spares.. Hopefully I will get 2 boards from my supplier and hopefully with the spares I have, it will last until I can find a supplier of new LEDs.

    Thanks for your help

    Cheers

    Jon

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Quote Originally Posted by jweaver
    It actually worse than I thought.. My supplier has offered to send me some new boards, so I went home to have a closer look.

    It turns out that one board is fine (6xwhites)..

    The board that I said had 2xyellows, actually has 4xyellows (2 pairs).. BUT.. At lunch time, when I switched it on, the last pair have actually gone too.. So its 6xyellow.. 2 more blown since i spotted the problem? Surely more than a co-incidence.

    The 3rd board has 2 blues..


    The weird thing is that all of the 'bad' lights appear to be in pairs. (i.e the top, middle or bottom pair).. This surely indicates something more than just failed LEDs.. Of course, this could be a co-incidence!


    Fortunatly, there are 4 good LEDs on the right board, so atleast I now have some spares.. Hopefully I will get 2 boards from my supplier and hopefully with the spares I have, it will last until I can find a supplier of new LEDs.

    Thanks for your help

    Cheers

    Jon
    The lights come on and off depending on their expansion and the resulting damage, usually goinf from white to yellow and eventually to blue and then off. This is not guaranteed however.

    The reason that pairs go is that each color diode of the two is wired in series, so when one colour diode goes, the other one turns off (it may still be good).

    It's kind a pea in the shell game, so replacing them all is the easiest route (although no harm in keeping a fully functional board until they all go). Be warned, however that there is a difference in the light quality of the replacement LEDs to the original (and sometimes to each other - they are from a cheaper production run) and they must be replaced in pairs.
    Wayne ウェイン :rambo:
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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Its got even worse...

    Last night it was like this:

    O O|Y Y|O O
    O O|Y Y|O O
    O O|O O|O O

    (Where O=OK, Y=yellow and B=Blue)

    My supplier asked me to double check what I needed and when I came home found this:

    O O|Y Y|B B
    O O|Y Y|O O
    O O|Y Y|O O


    Then, when I got home this evening this evening it was like this:

    O O|Y Y|B B
    O O|Y Y|B B
    O O|Y Y|O O

    So, since last night, a pair have gone Yellow and another 2 pairs have gone blue.

    I am now starting to think that the first 2 pairs of yellows happened AFTER I got the machine.

    Could it have anything to do with the way I am switching it on? I am simply turning on the mains at the switch on the wall socket, rather than switching it off at the PSU. It not easy to open the door, so really don't want to have to switch it off/on by the PSU if I can help it

    I am not sure what to do now.. Either I am just unlucky, or this indicates a more serious problem (perhaps my Transformer is kicking out too much power??)

    Jon.



    Wayne,

    If I understand what you are saying, if I have a board with 6 yellow LEDs (like my middle one), its possible (if not probable) that only 3 have failed.

    So, rather than just check it away, I should really test each LED to find out which one is gone?

    Is there any easy way to do this? I am guessing that slapping 5v across each one might do the trick!

    Jon

    Look what I just found:

    http://www.litewave.co.uk/superflux_led_modules.asp

    Now, if I understand this correctly, these 'strips' utilise the Superflux LEDs that we need.. It seems that they do a 'strip' of these for £3.50 (Approx $7).. I have contacted them to ask:

    1. Whether they can supply the LEDs 'raw'
    2. Whether they can supply the name of their supplier
    3. Whether the 'strip' can be disassembed and the LEDs removed

    I hope these are the right LEDs, as for £3.50, I could replace ALL my LEDs!

    I will report back once I know..

    Jon
    Last edited by jweaver; 07-12-2006 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Eye Shooter websherpa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Don't go through the angst of thinking it's anything you've done (we've all been there), we thoroughly checked the root causes and it's the defective LEDs. Certainly transportation humidity and the fact that you actually turned them on (heat) precipitates the lens failure. We watched several over time and they actually blink on and off with fluctuations in heat and machine vibrations. All of the US suppliers I have talked to have acknowledged it's a problem, have canabalized whole machines to give their customers replacement boards, and none, that I know of has found or employed a fix for it, mostly they hope you don't notice or they are relatively sure the machine was working when they tested it.

    The units you mentioned are "resin sealed" so unless they will sell separately I doubt they are salvageable. Fronzdan mentioned Quikar http://www.quickar.com/
    I'm pretty sure that's Mark Hannah, same supplier as the other link I provided. He has them listed still under Discrete LEDs near the bottom, whpir.

    It looks like he has another potential candidate
    8MM 360 DEGREE VIEW ANGLE
    HIGH POWER
    80ma typ - 100ma max
    INVERTED CONE LEDS $3 each



    Much expensivo (not unlike the "close" available Kingbrights that would have cost close to $70 I think to fix all 18 and not as well as the Pirahnas). That's $18 to fix one real, $54 to fix all three. These might be worth experimenting with.



    You can briefly test an LED with a diode meter that puts out about 3v. Usually an unlimited power supply (with out an appropriate resistor in series) can damage the LED as the current is too high. Alternatively I just built a separate 24VDC circuit (with 720 Ohm 1 watt resistor) on a perf board and plug them in and apply the limited voltage to each anode.

    By my calculations the 1200 - 2000 mcd luminosity we were looking for over a 200 degree viewing angle would be about the same as these 15 lm LEDs, but I would swear the specs on the whiprs indicated only 1200 mcd over 100 degrees, meaning these babies could be way too bright.

    Maybe someone better at electronics math can check the calculations for me to see if thesehttp://www.quickar.com/8minv.pdf would be a suitable candidate for testing. at $3 a pop, though they are expensive compared to the whiprs (especially in quantity).
    Last edited by websherpa; 07-12-2006 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    veneratio million deus Eddie's Avatar
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    Last edited by Eddie; 07-12-2006 at 02:24 PM.
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    Kungishi fronzdan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Just echoing what the others have said. You'll go crazy trying to figure out which of the original RGB LEDs is bad and which isn't. And when you think you have it figured out, you'll replace the bad one and find that it's "partner" is now dead or off-color because of the nearby heat from the soldering iron or the minor stress that you placed on the board while taking it in/out of the reel. Trust me, we spent many days on this. I tried re-epoxying the lenses in order to repair the seal....not worth the time or effort, if it even worked, they died eventually. We tried several LED styles, shapes, specs. We even tried sanding down the cases on some to improve light dispersion angle....lol.

    What I suggest you do is contact your vendor and have him send you a complete set of replacement LED boards. In all liklihood these will have problems or will exhibit them shortly. Like I said, just the act of pulling them out of the reel is enough stress on the LED package to break the seal on the little lens. Now you'll have spare boards to work with. Then remove all the RGB LEDs on one set and put the piranhas in. That way you machine won't go down and you'll have a spare set.

    Looking at the new $3 ones....err...how do you convert an lm spec to mcd?! Electrically they should work. But if they are significantly brighter, that's not good - the LCD may not be able to "darken" the reel as well during video sequences. Another thing is, the spec says you cannot bend or clip the leads, which means the case is very fragile. When you mount a discrete LED on the existing boards, you really have to stretch the leads to fit into the correct pair of holes. That sounds risky with a $3 LED. The piranhas are still the best bet I think. It's almost a drop-in replacement....well.... rotated....with a resistor cut out. The minor differences in angle and brightness between the piranhas and a fully working original is barely noticeable.

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Can I just check one thing.. Did you replace yours with White 'Superflux' LEDs, or were they still tri-colour?

    Jon

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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I don't think they make tri-colour Pirhanas (Super Flux) , I think they only come with one large diode of each colour. In any case, we used the white ones and the colour balance was fairly close (to the eye) to the original - maybe a little bluer.
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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    Ahha.. Now its making sense.. Are 'Superflux' the type or the make?

    I have found plenty of "Superflux" LEDs in the UK, but there is no mention of Piranha.. Is it safe to assume that ones called "Superflux" are the right one, or are they just the 'type' of LED?

    These are the ones I am tempted by:

    http://www.phenoptix.co.uk/ProductDe...I-FLUX-3000-20

    They are very cheap and the shipping is 30p (Equivilant to one spin on a Pachislo)

    They may be a little bright, but since I should end up with a complete set of 'spare' boards, I will be able to experiment and will be able to replace EVERY light, so I would have nothing to compare it too.. Am I right in thinking that I can just removed the original 6 pin LEDs and replace them with these White ones (4 pins) with no removal/changes to the resistors?


    Jon
    Last edited by jweaver; 07-13-2006 at 04:00 AM.

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    Fever Hunter jweaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    I have done a bit more hunting and found these

    http://www.led1.de/shop/index.php?cN...3-lumen-c-5_28

    But these are rated at 3 Lumins, where as the ones I found at Phenoptix are 2000-3000mcd.

    Websherpa told me that he used 1200mcd/100 degree versions, so I went here:

    http://led.linear1.org/lumen.wiz

    Pumped in the values (1200mch/100 Degrees) And out popped the answer........

    3

    So, 3 Lumens is the same.. So, it appears that the ones from "led1.de" are the same as what Websherpa used.

    Not sure now whether to get those (With more expensive shipping) or the ones at Phenoptix which appear to be brighter!!

    Jon

    And finally.. I have found these:

    http://www.giant-supplier.com/576mmLED.htm

    This place supplies the 1200mcd/100deg version and are in the UK..
    Last edited by jweaver; 07-13-2006 at 04:31 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Sandwich Shooter chaz70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beast Sapp: Reel LEDs faulty?

    jweaver, here are pictures posted by Fronzdan a while ago of the board completed with pirahna replacements. These are the pictures I used as reference when I changed my own.
    Attached Images Attached Images

    (Ask Mark if you don't believe me.)

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